Video clip and Transcript of CNN-Indonesia's Interview with Singapore's Ambassador to Indonesia Anil Kumar Nayar on the haze situation in Singapore

Video clip link: https://www.facebook.com/SingaporeEmbassyJkt/videos/1066019630075054/ ↗ (opens in new tab)

Correspondent: So Ambassador, thank you for having me here today. First and foremost, how has the haze affected Singaporeans in the past few weeks?

Amb: Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today. The haze is a very serious problem that all of us are facing together. But if you would allow me, I would like to give a background on the situation. First of all, I think we have to be clear in our minds that the haze is not just a problem for Singapore. It is a problem for Singapore. It is a problem for Malaysia. And of course, it is a problem for our Indonesian friends as well. 

Correspondent: For the region. 

Amb: Yes. I think our Indonesian friends in the affected regions are suffering more than anyone else. It is a problem that is causing long term damage to the health of the people in the region. So the question is what can we do together to bring an end to this problem. And I think that is the critical issue here. Not just to do something in the short term, move on, and have this problem re-visit us again. Because if we continue like that, then the effects on the long term health of our people and the well-being of our people will be tremendous. 

Of course, in addition to the health of all of us, the other factor would be the effect that it is having on the economy. You might recall then when we first had a very bad haze situation in 1997, it was estimated that the cost to the economy of Southeast Asia during that period was US$9 billion. It also came at considerable cost to the Singapore economy and I am sure the Indonesian economy was also affected. So there is a very heavy economic cost to all of us. 

I think the third point that we also need to bear in mind is that the solution to this problem does not rest in one country alone. There has to be a collective solution that we all have to find. 

As you know, there is an ASEAN Transboundary Agreement on Haze which all of us have ratified now, including Indonesia, which also means that all of us now have to go through that agreement very carefully to see what our obligations are, what our responsibilities are and to do those things as quickly as possible, to put an end to this problem. So for example, if that includes the sharing of information so that we can do something to put an end to the fires, to bring to justice the errant companies who are involved in these activities, then I think we must share the information with one another so that the action can be taken. 

As you might also know, this is also a very important year on the global environmental front. The UN for example, there is going to be a lot of discussion on sustainable environmental issues this year. And when they look at Southeast Asia, and they see a problem like this, then I dare say that the credibility of our region, including the governments of our region will be very badly affected. So we have to work together collectively to do something about this urgently. 

Lastly, before I give you an opportunity for more questions, I think we need to also take into account the fact that Indonesia is taking steps to deal with this situation. I have read the comments by Bapak Menko Luhut, and also the other Ministers, including the Environment Minister, Home Affairs Minister, and of course President Jokowi himself went to the ground in some of these affected areas. 

Definitely we know Indonesia is taking steps but it is a question of what more we can do together, and to do things together urgently. If you look at what has happened, Singapore has been offering its bilateral assistance to Indonesia, over the years, whenever we have had this haze problem. Every year, before the dry season, Singapore makes an offer of its assets, of the information and the data that we have. We are ready to cooperate in helping Indonesia with all this information to deal with the haze situation.

Correspondent: As a prevention? 

Amb: Yes. Every year before the dry season starts. So including this year, in June, we already made the offer to the Indonesian government that this is the assistance we are ready to give. When the haze situation started to worsen this year in September, when it started to reach critical stages in early September, again the offers were renewed. There was communication between our Environment Minister Vivian Balakrishnan and Ibu Siti. There was also communication between our Defence Minister Ng and Bapak Ryamizard. And at one stage, we were told that Indonesia was ready to accept some of the assistance we were willing to give but subsequently, we were told that while Indonesia was very appreciative of the assistance we were offering, Indonesia would try to deal with the situation on its own. 

Correspondent: They declined. 

Amb: Yes. But on the 14 Sep, there was another conversation between our Environment Minister and Ibu Menteri Siti in which the offers were renewed again, and this time, Ibu Menteri agreed that the information about the errant companies who might be involved in these activities will be shared with us. So now we are really waiting for that information. 

I need to reinforce this point - that sometimes I see in the media here or some speculation, that a lot of these companies which are involved in these activities are based in Singapore, thereby implying that perhaps Singapore would like to protect these companies, and therefore in some way we are responsible for our own suffering in this problem. 

Again I want to underscore that we have passed legislation to deal with these errant companies. We are not looking at nationality, whether they are based in Singapore or whether they are Singaporean. If they are responsible for a problem like this, they will have no protection from the law and we will take legal action against them, as per the law. You can be sure of that. But of course to do that, we would require the support, information and assistance of our friends in Indonesia and this is what we are hoping to get very urgently, so that we can make sure that systematically, we put an end to this problem and help our people to not have to face this problem, year in year out, especially our Indonesian friends in the affected areas. 

Correspondent: You were talking about ratifying the agreement at the regional level. All these years, the agreement has been ratified a few or several times over the years, but the haze has gotten worse each year, the forest fires have gotten bigger every year and affected Singaporeans lives even worse. How do you think that ratifying it again will help achieve your interests?

Amb: Well, the agreements were ratified once by each country. I think the last country to do it, if my memory serves me right, was Indonesia, which was last year. So it was finally done. Now that it has been ratified, we have to take steps under the agreement in terms of sharing information, cooperating to meet our respective obligations under the agreement. 

But in the meantime, we have been trying to do as much as we can, bilaterally, and among a small group of countries as well. For example, Singapore had a memorandum of understanding with Jambi, where we took some effort, put in some steps to work with the local community there to take preventive measures to prevent such problems from arising. And I would daresay that the project moved on very well. Of course eventually the MOU came to an end, and we have been trying to renew it for some time. We have been told that President Jokowi has given instructions for this MOU to be renewed and for more cooperation. And we are ready, we are waiting for that. Once our Indonesian friends are ready, I hope we can get this moving again. But I think the basic point here is that, all of us know what we need to do. The most important thing is to work together to do that as quickly as possible. 

Correspondent: So your government is working alongside the Jambi local government for this help? 

Amb: Yes the Jambi local government. 

Correspondent: But what has been done by them right now? You are saying that you would like to offer them another..

Amb: Yes, we wanted to continue with the existing MOU which lapsed after the period that it was supposed to run. So we were trying to renew it.

Correspondent: But how was the counterpart doing? 

Amb: But for some reason, from the Indonesian side, there was some delay in getting it renewed. So we have moved on to the Jokowi Administration now, with the instructions from President Jokowi for the MOU to be renewed and for cooperation to start. We are hoping that we can get moving again on this. 

Correspondent: Has Mr Jokowi sent his apologies to Singaporeans? 

Amb: We have noted that he has taken very decisive steps in terms of giving instructions to his colleagues in Cabinet. Today as well, I saw a statement from Coordinating Minister Luhut that they discussed this issue again seriously. I think President Jokowi does not need any reminders from us that the people who are most affected by this are his own citizens. I think he is fully aware of this, he went to the ground. It is a question of how we can translate that recognition into real action. And this is where in Singapore we are ready to work with Indonesia to actually systematically put an end to this problem which has been building up. If we allow this to go on at this rate, it will cost tremendous damage to the health, to the economy of our region, and of course to the credibility of our region as a whole and this is something that we cannot allow. 

Correspondent: Your government has forecasted this damage in September. In June, you forecasted what could happen in September and had offered help at that time but it was declined. Did the government give any reason as to why they declined the offer at the time? And you said that you are renewing the offer all over again but then again that has been declined?

Amb: Well I don’t think it is fair for me to speculate on what the Indonesian decision-making process is. What I have explained to you is the chronology of what has happened. I think the key point here is that as far as Singapore is concerned, our government anticipates that this problem will come up every year based on our own assessment. And therefore, we do what we can by way of offering our assistance to Indonesia. Of course it is the sovereign right of Indonesia to decide if it wants to take up the assistance or not. But we make the offer and are ready to provide the offer as and when it is taken. As I said, this year in September, in early September, when the situation worsened, we renewed the offer again to say that this is what we have offered, this is on the table and if you are ready to take it, we are ready to deploy quickly. 

The Indonesian government initially signalled to us that it was ready to accept the help, but subsequently informed us that while they were appreciative of the offer, they have assets and the means to deal with the current situation and would like to do so first. So which is why again as I have said, on the 14 September, our Environment Minister once again contacted Ibu Siti and renewed the offer again to say that we are ready to come in and help if it is needed. And in the meantime, of course, we also asked information with regard to errant companies who might be involved in this activity so that we might take action against them with the evidence and proof that is provided by Indonesia. And she has promised to do so. So we are also awaiting that. So the movement is on two fronts.

Correspondent: Okay, so meaning that the Indonesian government has yet to accept the offer of help from the Singapore government. 

Amb: Minister Siti said that she will take it up with the President again for his consideration and she will let us know. 

Correspondent: What kind of help? 

Amb: We have offered air assets, a C130 aircraft which can be used for seeding operations. We have also offered other assets, Chinook helicopters, and we have made the offer of data which can be used to see where the hotspots and what can be done about it. So these are some technical expertise. We also have a team from Singapore that can be deployed on the ground, from our civil defence force, who can help out. These are some of the offers that we have made. 

But as I said, throughout the years, we have been quite happy to work not only during this period, but before and after as well, by way of working with Indonesia, with the information provided by Indonesia to track down those responsible for this. And for that, we hope that this One Map project that is ongoing in Indonesia will succeed so that the information that can be discerned from the One Map can be used to track down some of these people who are responsible for these things and to take action against them. I think that is also very important. 

Correspondent: Alright. How much has the haze affected Singaporeans? It is stated that there are many Singaporeans who have gone to the hospital as they have experienced health problems. 

Amb: I can’t quantify that at the moment because as you know, the situation is still unfolding this year. We are still experiencing pretty bad haze. We have been told that the dry season would be longer than expected which unfortunately means the prognosis is not very good and the bad situation will carry on for a while. For sure, based on past experience, the elderly and the young are most prone to be badly affected by this situation. 

Correspondent: They have been admitted to the hospital. 

Amb: Yes, we have people going to the clinics. And in Singapore as well, the government has actually provided additional subsidies for the elderly during this period because they go for treatment as they are affected by the haze. Again anticipating that this is going to be a problem, a lot of precautions have been taken in schools, the workplace, for the elderly, children and so on. Generally, a lot of activities in Singapore have been affected. We take the precautions that we need to take. 

But we can’t handle this situation like this every year. And when I say we, I do not just mean Singapore, because this is a problem that affects all of us. It is a transboundary problem, including and especially for Indonesia in the affected areas. As someone here in Jakarta, when I read in Indonesian media and I follow the media, and I see the PSI readings in Singapore inching up higher and higher, I can only imagine how bad it must be for the people in Sumatra and Kalimantan who are right there, affected, just as we are also being affected. So I think collectively, we have got to do something, and do it quickly. 

Correspondent: Do you feel like Singaporeans have been fed up with what has been going on? This has been an annual thing for Singaporeans. It is not something that you developed yourself, it is not something that you cannot avoid, but it is happening over and over again.

Amb: I think rightly speaking, all of us are affected and therefore it is understandable if all of us are fed up and I think all of us definitely want to do something about it. From time to time, I hear comments here in Indonesia from some of our Indonesian friends that Singapore is complaining too much about these things. Again I can say, yes it affects us, therefore we complain, and rightly so, but I can only imagine how the people in Indonesia itself who are affected would complain. So it is not a problem for Singapore alone or a problem for Malaysia alone. This is a problem that all of us are facing including Indonesia. Which is why we have to work together to deal with it. 

Correspondent: Do you think that so far the Indonesian government has underestimated the problem?

Amb: Well again, I am not in a position to judge the Indonesian government’s performance. As I said, we are encouraged by the fact that President Jokowi is taking full responsibility for this. In a way, he has placed his credibility on the line for it. And he has given instruction for his colleagues in Cabinet to move, so we hope that action will be taken. But that is for the now, for the immediate. What we clearly hope is to be able to work with Indonesia to deal with this problem in such a way that it does not repeat itself in future, because the long-term damage that it does to everyone’s health, the damage that it does to the economy and to our credibility as a whole is tremendous and we have to put a stop to that.

Correspondent: How much has it affected the businesses in Singapore, especially for tourism. I mean in a short time there will be the Grand Prix and the cloud is going to cover all over Singapore, and it will affect the event badly. So how is it? 

Amb: Again, because we are in the middle of this situation, we have not been able to estimate precisely what are the financial implications. But you are absolutely right. It is a big factor in terms of negative impact on tourism. This is a very important week for Singapore because we have Formula One so if that is affected it would be another problem for us. I recall that in the 1997 situation when we had the haze, and even in 2013, the daily loss to tourism receipts, daily, went to well over 1-2 million dollars. And thousands of dollars a day by way of subsidised treatment for the people. So it is a serious issue that we cannot ignore, but we have to work collectively to deal with it together. 

Correspondent: Alright. So in the meantime, has there been like a... the Indonesian government will be meeting their Malaysian counterpart from the Ministry of Environment to see what can be done about this. What about Singapore? Will there be any G-to-G meetings?

Amb: Well, we have been in constant touch with our Indonesian counterparts on this issue. As I mentioned in June, we have corresponded in terms of the assistance we have offered. In early September, our environmental officials were in touch with their Indonesian counterparts. At the Ministerial level of course we have had our Environment Minister in constant touch with his counterpart. Our Defence Minister also in touch with his counterpart. So the communication is ongoing. I think now what we need to do is to deal with the situation in the immediate term. And also what we need to do together going forward. Whether it is bilaterally, whether it is Singapore with a region such as Jambi, whether it is within the ASEAN context, and of course whether internationally in the UN context, there are things that we need to do, and I think we will need to do them quickly. 

Correspondent: So Minister Siti has not been telling you who are those companies responsible, or alleged suspects of the ten companies, or the top three suspects behind these forest fires? 

Amb: Well we have seen what is in the media and she has indicated that she will share the information. 

Correspondent: But it is not directly to your government. 

Amb: She has not given us the information yet if that is what you mean, but she has indicated to our Minister of Environment that she will share the information with us and we are awaiting that. Again, I want to emphasise that there is no interest at all on the part of the Singapore government to protect any errant company or individual or entity that is involved in this activity. And if they are found to be in Singapore and proof is provided, we will take action based on our laws, because the problem that they are causing is a problem not just for Singaporeans but for everyone in Indonesia, Malaysia and the region as a whole, so we will definitely take action. But for that, we will need the support and the information from our friends in Indonesia. 

Correspondent: The scientists thought that the amount of budget to eradicate this year’s forest fires amounts to 10 billion dollars. And for now, the Indonesian government has not even come close to the amount of money that they need to eradicate and eliminate the fires in Sumatra. Do you think they have done enough? 

Amb: Well again it is not my place to sit here and judge what the Indonesian government has done or not done. I think the Indonesian people and the Indonesian government themselves together will assess what they have done and whether it is enough. The most important thing, coming from Singapore, as a neighbour and as an affected country, is to find how we can work together to deal with it. This is where we are ready.

Correspondent: Alright. Do you think ASEAN will impose sanctions on Indonesia because this has become an annual thing and it has affected not only the economy, but in the long term the health of your people?

Amb: The worst thing that can happen is that this problem carries on unabated. People’s health becomes badly affected. The economy suffers. ASEAN’s credibility is badly affected. And the governments that are affected and whose people are affected start to point fingers at each other and take the negative route. That is what, of all these things that I just said, this is entirely the thing that we want to avoid, and which is why we have emphasised that let us get the cooperation moving urgently now.

Correspondent: To make sure Indonesia knows what the implication is in the future.

Amb: I think all of us must know what the implications are for all of us. Again we are not singling out Indonesia or any one country. This is not a problem for Singapore. It is not a problem for Indonesia or Malaysia. It is a problem for all of us. All of us have this problem and we need to work together to deal with it. But we need to meet our own responsibilities and obligations in doing it. 

Correspondent: Thank you Excellency for your time. 

Amb: Thank you very much.