Transcript of Singapore Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Law K Shanmugam's media wrap-up at the 48th AMM and related meetings, 6 August 2015

Media: Yesterday the ASEAN Secretary General was saying that China’s reclamation work was eroding the trust among ASEAN countries. Can you comment on what the Secretary General said?

Minister: I don’t quite know what the Secretary General said. But our positon has been that we need to focus on the Code of Conduct. And that recent actions, not just by one party, but by the claimant states, has certainly increased tensions and eroded trust. There is an erosion of trust. There can be no doubt about that. Rather than pointing to a country or a specific country, I think we acknowledge the erosion of trust and ask ourselves why. We are at a crossroads. The claimants themselves have competing claims. These competing claims are not going to be resolved anytime soon. And each one of course takes the position that their claims are sacrosanct. So who is going to give way? There are only two ways of dealing with it. One, you go and use kinetic force or you use force in other ways. The other – try and find a sensible negotiated settlement, where everyone have got to have some pain and everyone walks away with regional peace maintained. So two routes. If we choose the former, you will see any time when there is force, eventually there will be a counterforce. And in the interim, there will be erosion of trust. You will find countries coalescing amongst  themselves, alliances being formed, even if there is no immediate kinetic action. That destroys one fundamental that has been the basis of the prosperity of this region.

So nationalism and domestic pressures in countries may push them in a direction of trying to say that everyone’s claims is sacrosanct, there can be no negotiations. But wisdom and statesmanship is needed for us to take the second route, which is to try and find a solution. It’s not going to be easy. And the COC is not the total solution. It is simply a process that puts in place a mechanism to try and dial down the tensions, say how parties can conduct amongst themselves, while the claimant states try and find a negotiated solution. Progress of the COC has not been rapid. I’ve said that more than once. It could have been faster. And our role as country coordinator for China and ASEAN relationship is to try and focus on the COC and see how much progress we can make.  But we can only make the progress that the countries want to make. We are only the coordinator, we are not a claimant state. So as I said, we are at a crossroads.  We can choose one of the two routes. We can sit and point fingers as to who is to be blamed for what has happened but I think that what has happened has happened, except that trust is now undermined. Understand the consequences of one course of action as opposed to other, and let’s try and focus and see how we can find a negotiated solution.  That’s our own position. 

Media: Minister, can you update us on the status of the joint communique and also your assessment of the relationship between Asean and China after these talks.

Minister: The joint communique should have been done by yesterday. It has not been finalised as of now. There are difficulties so we will just have to wait and see what happens.

Media: What are some of the difficulties?

Minister: I don’t want to go into the drafting process and the position of individual countries because that’s really done behind closed doors but the paragraph relating to South China Sea is causing some problems.

Media: Like you said, there is no consensus yet amongst the ASEAN member countries. Does it actually send a clear signal to China to stop …

Minister: I wouldn’t put it that way. What I would say is that there is no consensus on how that paragraph ought to read as of now.

Media: Do you think ASEAN has failed to ask China to stop work?

Minister: I wouldn’t put it that way because to say that ASEAN has failed to ask China to stop work suggests first of all that ASEAN has a duty and that no one else is doing anything. I think one has got to approach this neutrally and objectively and the best way of analysing it is what I told you just now, which is that every country claims that its claims are sacrosanct. Every country has done some building, or more than one country has done some building. And if we go down this path, it’s going to go down one route which is not going to be good for any of us. The other path is one where we try and negotiate a solution, an interim solution and a longer term solution. So, the joint communique reflects ASEAN’s position neutrally and objectively because ASEAN is not a claimant organisation. It comprises both claimant and non-claimant states and we have to put it in a fair and objective way. We are trying to find a way of doing it.

Media: Sir, what has China been saying to ASEAN countries behind closed doors, for example, in meetings yesterday, what was their position on the South China Sea? What was their stance?

Minister: On the South China Sea, China takes a view that there should be something that’s dealt with between the claimant states and China. But, they accept that ASEAN as a whole has an interest in making sure that there is peace and that tensions do not get out of hand.

Media: Your understanding is that China has stopped reclamation but has not stopped construction.

Minister: I don’t know that for a fact. What I have been told is based on the statements they have made. My understanding of it is that they indicated some weeks ago that the reclamation activities would be completed soon and I don’t think there was anything else about what else had happened.

Media: But does China actually understand that apart from the claims, other ASEAN and non-ASEAN countries are also concerned about the maritime and flyover and navigation …

Minister: I think all countries, not just China, understand that there are concerns about freedom of navigation and air flights. Those concerns have been made public by several countries. It’s a fact.

Media: There is no moratorium currently, is there?

Minister: There is no moratorium.

Media:  The other countries like Philippines and the (inaudible) are they building? Can we say that? I mean, behind closed doors..

Minister: I think you should ask the Philippines. You see, I don’t want to be commenting on what the Philippines, Vietnam are doing, and what China is doing. What I can say to you is, the claimant states say that each other is building. (laughs) We do know that there has been building by more than one claimant state.

Media: So Thailand and China yesterday said that they were taking COC “to the next level”. Can you explain what that next level is?

Minister: We had a meeting in Tianjin with senior officials last week where there was an agreement that we would identify the commonalities and how we can put in the elements into the COC, identify some common elements that can be put in. We are aiming for further meetings before the end of the year for that.

Media: China yesterday made a ten-point proposal on how we can work on the COC, if I am not wrong. Relations between ASEAN…

Minister: It’s not just on COC. The ten-point proposal covers a broad range of issues. As I keep saying, the South China Sea is one issue. There are many aspects to China-ASEAN relationship where economic, strategic , political, and the ten-point proposal covers a broad range of areas.

Media: So as the country coordinator for China this time round, how is Singapore planning to take this forward – to take China’s proposal forward?

Minister: We have said that our priorities are, to look at the ASEAN-China FTA- we want to upgrade it; we are looking at next year as the significant year in China’s status as the dialogue partner for ASEAN- we need to properly commemorate it; we want to move on the COC, which is important. So these are concrete practical items that we want to work on.

Media: China has said yesterday during the press conference as well that non-regional states should stay out of this. ASEAN and China alone can solve this problem themselves. Do you think the US, Japan, all should stay clear of this region?

Minister: Well, Singapore looks at what is, and approaches things very practically. Who is going to tell Japan and US that they cannot express their views? Can we tell them? (laughs) You know there is a platform, who is going to say you cannot express your views? They exercise their right of freedom of navigation of the 7^th Fleet. Are we going to be able to stop them? So you know, from a very practical approach, I have said, a couple of days ago, that you have several types of interests here – one, there’s interests of the claimant states; the other, the interest of the ASEAN non-claimant states whose main interest, only interest I would say, is to make sure that there is peace; and the interests of non-claimant states which are outside of ASEAN but in the region and of course non-regional countries with a deep historical links, stake-holdings in this region, and I think everyone will have a view.

Media: But does it help though? Their presence, does it help or antagonise China and risk militarising the area, does it help having the presence of US and Japan?

Minister: I don’t think any comment I make on that will be very helpful, except to say that I think it’s not going to be practical to say these countries cannot express their views.

Media: Minister can you assess the relationship between ASEAN and China before and after the talks yesterday?

Minister: If you are asking for something that can a be a sound bite ‘before it was like this and after it was like that’, something that helps you sell newspapers – no answer, because you know this is an ongoing continuous process; it’s not going be capable to be put into media sound bites, it’s something that we have to work through. I think the clearest way of putting it is as I’ve said, crossroads, we have two choices now.

Media: Were there any new proposals to reduce tensions, because I heard that at least one country proposed a hotline between leaders of ASEAN and China. How do you feel about that?

Minister: The hotline proposal has been accepted, that was some weeks ago, it’s part of confidence building measures.

Media: Tell us a little bit about this dual, two-track approach, can you explain to us - China mentioned that in a press release yesterday they’re pursuing this two-track, what exactly they want to do with two-track?

Minister: You should ask them on that.

Media: It’s different from the crossroads thing you were saying?

Minister: No, no they’re not referring to the crossroads I referred to.

Media: Can you comment on whether you are happy with the pace of the COC talks?

Minister: I have said that we are not happy.

Media: Sir, was there any discussions on the ASEAN (inaudible) …

Minister: Not here. We have said that we can make possible progress and we have said that that is one area we as country coordinator want to push, Thailand has pushed a lot, some progress was made a couple of weeks ago but as I’ve said all the claimant states have to come together and agree before we can make progress. We see some renewed effort on the part of everyone and we are not unhopeful.

Media: Sir, is ASEAN any closer towards resolving the migrant issue that was such a big topic in May and June this year, and apart from the anti-trafficking and task force, have any other proposals been brought up?

Minister: No other specific country proposals, we discussed it, you know it’s a complex issue, there are receiving countries, there are countries that are part of the transit route, there are countries from which the migrants come. So you got to look at the different countries and they are talking. Singapore is too small to receive migrants but what we can do to help the process is to put up some money to the trust fund that will help the countries look after the migrants in a temporary way. It is something that is continuing to be on the radar.

Media: Managed to send a message to Myanmar to do more or is Rohingya still a taboo in ASEAN?

Minister: The word Rohingya is not taboo in ASEAN, again you know diplomatically I don’t think I want to single out Myanmar. I think the best I can say is it’s a complex situation, with many countries that have come together and deal with this. Because if we ask Myanmar, they say the problem doesn’t come from them. And then you know, in order to solve the problem therefore you got to look at it from different viewpoints and try and see where you can go.

Media: But did you find a way?

Minister: We haven’t found a way.

Media: Minister, coming back to the ten-point proposal China had on deepening relations with ASEAN, and various countries have said that most of the talks with China is 90% about other stuff and 10% about the South China Sea. But they’ve got things like the Maritime Silk Road and so on and so forth, a lot of these proposals that they are supposed to come up and really push forward soon, but would you say a lot of it hinges on tensions in the South China Sea because it looks like the whole thing is like a bundle of issues.

Minister: I wouldn’t put it as a bundle of issues but I would say, in order to make progress, you need trust and confidence. And if trust and confidence is a factor, regardless of why, then it’s going to affect on the positive proposals as well. You deal with it not just therefore by focusing on the South China Sea issue. You deal with it by also trying to increase the connectivity, increase the trust, by positive initiatives that China has, that ASEAN has. You have to work on them, while being mindful that the SCS issue can impact on trust and confidence and try and work on it as well. In that sense, trust and confidence is the underlying factor for everything.

Media: [inaudible] To restore trust and confidence do you think it’s important for China… They said they have stopped building but will ASEAN take its word for it?

Minister: ASEAN comprises a number of countries. Different countries have different views. We are not in a position to verify but I think the starting point is what does each country say it is doing or has stopped doing. There is a press statement some time ago, a few weeks ago about what China has said that it will do or will not do. I don’t have any further information on what China or the other claimants are doing.

Media: Could we get your reaction, it’s in last night’s news, Malaysian Prime Minister confirming that the debris discovered is MH370.

Minister: That is something that many people have suspected. It seems to then bear out the original hypothesis that the plane moved towards the Indian Ocean. It is a very sad situation.

Media: Thank you very much.

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