Transcript of PM Lee Hsien Loong's interview with Caijing

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong was interviewed by Caijing magazine when he visited Hangzhou for the G20 summit. The interview was published in Caijing magazine on 19 September 2016.

The English transcript of the interview is reproduced below. It is also available at:  http://www.pmo.gov.sg/mediacentre/transcript-pm-lee-hsien-loongs-interview-caijing

. . . . .

Transcript of PM Lee Hsien Loong's interview with Caijing

 Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong was interviewed by Caijing magazine when he visited Hangzhou for the G20 summit.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Q: Since 1999, G20 has had the objective of achieving cooperation and coordination by global governance. What do you think are the big challenges for global governance that should be discussed at the Hangzhou Summit? Are there any particular achievements you would like to see? 

PM: I think the Chinese government has chosen a very suitable topic for the Hangzhou Summit, which is the blueprint for innovative growth. And the way they have defined it is talking about structural changes within economies, talking about innovation and talking about the digital economy. I think these are opportunities and issues which face many countries, China included. And it is an area that we can cooperate and work together. They have chosen a good subject. They have also talked about inclusive and interconnected growth. That resonates with us because the G20 does not include all the countries in the world but it influences the global economy, which concerns all the countries in the world. And so, it is important that it reflects the concerns and perspectives of more than just the formal membership of the G20. And Singapore is very happy to be participating as a guest and representing the 3G Group, the Global Governance Group, which consists of 30 small countries at the UN. We work together, and Singapore hopes that at the meeting, we will be able to say something which is relevant to this group.

Q: On the practical level, what might be difficult is that the problem is on the global level, but the way of solving the problem is at the national level. How do we deal with this difficulty?

PM: The challenges are similar, but as you say, each country has to tackle it in its own way. The big challenge which we all face is disruption. Things are changing very fast and existing ways of doing business are not working so well anymore. New ways are coming in, which offer advantages, but are going to be not easy for incumbents to adapt. Just like 滴滴快的, you have Uber in the US, and Lyft, and in China, you have got 滴滴. It is not easy for existing taxi operators and drivers. Yet it is an advantage for commuters, for riders, for the economy. And you want them. So how do we respond to disruption? We have to help the companies to upgrade and restructure themselves and restructure the economy. We have to help workers to train and retrain themselves, and be able to do their new jobs. We have to set right the regulatory environment so that it is possible for change to take place, but take place in a not-so-disruptive manner if possible. These are things which each country has to do. We have to solve our own problems, we can talk to each other and pick up ideas from one another.

Q: You have made a strong push for TPP ratification during your visit to the US.  But as we know, Trump has gained a lot of support by opposing TPP, and even Hillary Clinton has shown an increasing reluctance to support TPP.  How do you see the fate of the TPP?

PM: The negotiations for the TPP have been completed, and the agreement has been signed. Now it has to be ratified, like any other agreement. Ratification is a process which all the participants have to go through. And in some countries, it is harder than the others. The other TPP participants also have to ratify the agreement. The most significant one which everyone is watching is what is going to happen in America. It is difficult to say at this stage how things will unfold. During an election campaign in America, it is very seldom popular to talk about free trade and to be in favour of free trade. We hope that after the election is over, there will be an opportunity either before January, in the lame-duck term of Congress, or after January, when the new President comes in, and he is faced with the problem and he has to decide what to do in the interests of the United States, that they will look at it coolly. TPP is a very important initiative because it is one of the paths towards free trade in the Asia Pacific. You cannot do all the Asia Pacific countries together but the TPP includes a significant number of the countries. And we hope that in time, we will grow and expand to other countries as well. In particular, China is not part of the TPP at this point. But if the TPP can be concluded and ratified, as things develop, I am sure China will be watching it, and the opportunity may yet come for China to participate as well. Korea, which is not a member of TPP, is certainly interested in participating and joining in the next phase. There are also other trade initiatives within the Asia Pacific region which we are pursuing. For example, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), which is another trade agreement amongst Asian countries, including China, Japan, Korea, ASEAN, India and a few others. We believe that we have to work towards free trade because otherwise we will miss out on many opportunities for cooperation, and relations amongst countries will become much more difficult.

Q: It seems to us that Singapore is a strong advocate of ASEAN, you have mentioned that. But we see growing difficulty in reaching consensus due to differences in interests and priorities of the member states. What do you think?

PM: It depends on the issues. For some issues, the interests of the member states are well-aligned and we can work together. On some issues, their interests are not so well-aligned. Different members have different perspectives and we have to agree to disagree, or we have to agree on a lowest common denominator, the basic element of what a consensus is amongst the ASEAN countries. It is like that because ASEAN comprises 10 sovereign states, so there is no mechanism by which we can say we want to do this and all countries are compelled to follow that. But I think that it is important for ASEAN to be as cohesive as possible, to be effective, and to be a significant partner which can work with China, Japan, US or the EU. And help make a contribution to the regional architecture of economic cooperation as well as security cooperation. Because if ASEAN is split and Southeast Asia becomes a region where different powers contend with each other and try to jockey and gain advantage and play one country against another, it will raise tensions in the region and it will be very bad for all the ASEAN countries. It will not be to the advantage of the powers either, because it would mean a less stable Asia and that means more trouble and less ability to work together.

Q: You are still very optimistic, right?

PM: Well, I am laying out the difficulties, but I am setting out why it is very desirable for us to work towards a strong ASEAN.

Q: Can you share more about the RCEP?

PM: As I have said, it is a trade agreement which is being negotiated between China, Japan, Korea, ASEAN countries, India, as well as Australia and New Zealand. It is ambitious because the countries are very diverse and the approaches to trade are not identical, so we are not yet sure how far the agreement will go and how ambitious it will be. But we think it is the right direction to go, because within the Asian economies, trade volume has grown considerably. We are trading amongst one another and of course we are trading with China. And China is the biggest trading partner for many of these countries. Therefore we can have a free trade agreement which is substantial, meaningful and it covers all of these groups. It will help towards cooperation within Asia and give confidence to all the countries that we are able to compete on a level playing field fairly and cooperate together well. 

Q: As the US is rebalancing to Asia, China cares more about Asia, which Singapore welcomes. Do you think the US is competing with China for influence in ASEAN and how would ASEAN position itself?

PM: There is always competition for influence but there are also opportunities for cooperation. Countries in Asia, Singapore, certainly, but many other countries too, are good friends to both China and America and we would like to be good friends with both. And this is easiest if both China and America are working well with one another. We are happy to see that President Xi and President Obama have been meeting regularly and discussing things at the strategic level. There are areas of cooperation, like, on climate change. The two countries have just announced that they are ratifying the Paris Agreement which is a big step forward and very good for the world. But there are also issues between China and America such as the South China Sea. We hope these are issues which can be managed and will not cloud the overall relationship.

Q: You just mentioned President Obama. Obama said that your father was hugely important in helping him to formulate policies to rebalance to China. What do you think was his advice to the US?

PM: I am not sure exactly what Obama said, or what my father told him, but I think President Obama had his own reasons. If you look at it from the American point of view, Asia has been important to America for a very long time, since the war, which is now more than seventy years ago. America has made a significant contribution towards prosperity, towards stability, towards the security of Asia. And they continue to have a lot of stakes here. They have investments here, they have friends here, and they have interests here. So I think it is completely understandable that they would like to focus more on Asia and I think it makes sense also for the Asian countries. I see that between the two Presidents, Obama and Xi, they have said that the Pacific is big enough for both countries, America and China.

Q: I remember in 2012, you delivered a speech at the Central Party School. You said that China should not view the US as declining in power, but as a nation with the ability to innovate and bounce back. Are you suggesting that China’s analysis of the current US position in the world is mis-constructed? Or you expected China to have a better understanding of herself and her position?

PM: I think China has a very good understanding of America, you have very able diplomats. Your leaders meet their leaders regularly, so you have a good feel of the pulse. But I was just presenting our perspective. While China is prospering, America will continue to play significant role in the world for a long time.

Q: I think after World War II, the US made some structures for Asia right? America never left Asia. I remember you mentioned that before.

PM: Yes.

Q: Another question, back to the economy. As the global economy slows down, how do you see it impacting Singapore and the region?

PM: We have prospered with the global economy. So if it slows down, it is negative for us. It means that we have to work harder, internally, within our country, to develop growth. But also within the region, to cooperate with one another, in order for Asia to be able to move forward. And that is why we think regional cooperation is important, and restructuring and upgrading.

Q: For many ASEAN countries, Singapore included, relations with China are built on close economic relations. The China economy is slowing down. How will it affect their relationship?

PM: I think China’s economy is not growing as fast as before. But China is still continuing to grow and has many opportunities to transform itself. I have just been to Chongqing, came back this morning, and they are growing 10 percent a year. And Chongqing has a 30 million population. And I think there are other parts of China which are still growing rapidly, so there will be many opportunities for us to work together. But of course we hope that China will be able to achieve its economic transformation and structural changes, which you are focused on, which are very difficult to do and which will take some time. But which if you do them successfully, will enable you to improve the lives of the people for many more years to come. Which means you can maintain 5, 6 percent growth for another decade or two and that would make a big difference to it.

Q: What do you think of the current relationship between Singapore and China? You have just been to Chongqing. So how do you think the Government-to-Government project in Chongqing will help to deepen the relationship?

PM: It is a broad and substantial relationship. We have been friends for a long time. We cooperate in many areas – economic, trade, education, culture and on political issues too. And also regionally with ASEAN. The newest initiative is the Chongqing Connectivity Initiative in Chongqing which I just went to. I visited the Party Secretary Mr Sun Zhengcai and discussed it with him. And of course with Mayor Huang Qifan, whom I have known for quite a long time. We think that it is a significant initiative because it fits in with ‘One Belt, One Road’ [Belt and Road initiative]. It fits in with your Yangtze River region development [Yangtze River Economic Belt strategy]. It fits in with your western regional development [Western Region Development strategy]. And therefore there is an alignment of interest. If we can get it off the ground, it will also strengthen economic interconnections between Singapore and Chongqing, and really between Singapore and China. But we have cooperation with China on many other projects too. Suzhou was our first big project, we have got one in Tianjin, and our companies are in many of the provinces and cities all over China. So it is a broad relationship. But we are two countries. So we see the world from our respective perspectives. We have different vital interests, and we have different national policies and priorities. Often they align with each other and therefore we are able to cooperate. Sometimes, we have different perspectives and we respect each other’s points of view.

Q: China cannot be more different in size and population, but for us the Singapore model is a sort of an inspiration for China. In your country, what steps have you taken to reduce income disparity? I think it is very important for China at this stage.

PM: It is a very important issue for us. I think at the fundamental level, what we have done is provide for the basic things which people need, 衣食住行, which are your basic human necessities. So we have provided public housing, and helped everybody to be a homeowner in Singapore. We have provided good education, so that everybody has a chance to develop his skills and to become capable of earning a good living for himself. We have provided good public transport, because that is a basic amenity for an urban population. We have got good healthcare. So these are basic things which make sure that even if you are not rich in Singapore, you can have a good life in Singapore. But in addition to that, over the last 10 years or so, as the economic trends have developed, it has become clear in many countries that the gap between the rich and the poor has been widening. We have taken very definite measures to try to narrow the gap. In terms of our taxation policies, in terms of our incentives to lower-income workers. In fact, we have what we call a Workfare scheme, which means if you are a low income worker, and your salary is below a certain level, then when you work, your salary is topped up by the government. In cash and also in terms of social security benefits, your Central Provident Fund contributions are topped up by the government. So it is a kind of a negative income tax which helps people who work to increase their salary. We also have what we have called the Pioneer Generation Package, which is a package of medical benefits for the first generation of Singaporeans. They are old now, but they were the generation who helped to build up the country when we first became independent in the 1960s. At that time, salaries were not so high. Now, the country has prospered. So to recognise them, we developed a special package of medical benefits for this generation specifically. So that when they are old, they do not have to worry about their medical care needs. It is a big concern when people grow old. Will I be able to afford my medical, my medicines, my hospital bills and all the things which I need? These are just some of the things we are doing. I think if you look at the Gini coefficient, from what people earn and then after tax and after the government policies, the government policies have made a big difference.

Q: I think at this stage, China should learn a lot from Singapore. Could we talk about succession?

PM: Yes.

Q: Have you started to think about the qualities and the qualifications of your successor?

PM: We know what the qualities and the qualifications are. The question is who will best fulfil them and will he or she be able to work out together with the team and with Singaporeans. We are looking for somebody who has that judgement and that experience, and the leadership ability. Both to understand problems, analyse them, and also connect with Singaporeans and explain to people, and mobilise people to work together, to achieve our national goals. So at the same time, you are a mobiliser and a communicator. But at the same time, you also have to be a doer, an analyst, an implementer, and a team builder. It takes time, but I have a promising team of younger Ministers and I am quite sure from amongst them, one leader will emerge.

Q: While you prepare for the next generation of leaders in your party, what changes are you going to introduce to ensure the continued success?

PM: Our policies have to adapt and evolve all the time. One of the reasons why Mr Lee Kuan Yew was able to govern Singapore for many years and then hand over successfully to a new generation is because the policies did not stay static. And the style of governing also did not stay static. In fact, the focus of who was pushing the policies also changed. So even though he was Prime Minister, until 1990, from around the mid-80s onwards, already increasingly, the policies were being set and pitched and implemented by the younger generation of leaders. So in 1990 when a new Prime Minster took over, Mr Goh Chok Tong took over from him, it was very smooth. When Mr Goh Chok Tong handed over to me, it was again similarly, we had younger people taking over, setting the tone. And when I took over there was no surprise, and no sudden jerk or crashing of gears. That is what I hope to do now – have younger Ministers and increasingly they will take the initiatives, they will make the pitch to the population and the population will get to know them. The content of the policies will also change, because it is a new generation, with new concerns, new interests, new perspectives on what the priorities are, and what is important, what is acceptable in the way of government action. If we keep on adjusting this way, then we will always be able to maintain a stable, effective government. Otherwise if the government gets older and older, and the population remains young, I think then the gap will become wider and wider. It will not work.

Q: You just mentioned your father. How do you compare yourself with your father?

PM: I do not compare myself with him.  

Q: What are the similarities and differences between you and your father?

PM: We are living in very different ages. He lived in the age of upheaval and great tumult. And he was able to create order in Singapore, and make Singapore grow and prosper. We are now living completely in a new generation, in a stable Singapore, in a not very certain world. And our job is not to turn things upside down, or build from scratch, but to build on what we have, transform it, and make it better and more suited for tomorrow.

Q: Thank you.

PM: Thank you.

. . . . .

The text of PM's interview in Mandarin is reproduced below. It is also available at: https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/transcript-pm-lee-hsien-loongs-interview-caijing 

《财经》杂志专访新加坡总理李显龙：“我们希望同时成为中美的好友”

2016-09-19 14:06:00

奉行实用主义的新加坡在大国间寻求外交平衡。李显龙说：“亚洲国家，当然包括新加坡，既是中国的好朋友，也是美国的好朋友。”

本刊高级观察员 张燕冬 本刊记者 江玮/文

新加坡是世界地图上的一个“小红点”，却又是一个不能轻易忽视的存在。

这个东南亚岛国在美国亚太再平衡战略中发挥着重要作用，它最先发起参与的跨太平洋伙伴关系协定（TPP）如今是备受瞩目的贸易协定，新加坡模式被世界，尤其是中国反复讨论和研究。美国总统奥巴马也说，新加坡是个对世界有很大影响力的“小红点”。

9月初在杭州接受《财经》记者独家专访时，新加坡总理李显龙刚下飞机。他一路风尘仆仆，却看不出倦意。从美国的亚洲政策到东盟的团结，从自由贸易到中国与新加坡的关系，甚至谈到了接班人问题。

新加坡从不掩饰对于美国重返亚洲的欢迎。事实上，美国亚太再平衡政策的制定也与新加坡有关。在新加坡前总理李光耀去世后，奥巴马在一份声明中说，李光耀在帮助他制定亚太再平衡政策中发挥了至关重要的作用。尽管这一政策在一些人看来正是中美在亚洲紧张关系的源头。李显龙认为，美国在亚洲有很多利益、投资和盟友，对亚洲的关注可以理解。

一个月前，李显龙访问了美国。正在进行的总统选举使TPP通过的希望日渐黯淡，但他在多个场合呼吁美国批准TPP，强调它在美国亚太政策中的作用。

另一方面，以自由贸易港立国的新加坡对自由贸易有着更为深刻的认识。李显龙说：“我们相信我们需要迈向自由贸易，否则我们将失去很多合作的机会，各国之间的关系也会变得更加困难。”

奉行实用主义的新加坡在大国之间寻求外交平衡。面对美国重返亚洲后中美之间的竞争，李显龙说：“亚洲国家，当然包括新加坡，也有其他很多国家，既是中国的好朋友，也是美国的好朋友。我们希望成为两者的好朋友。”

64岁的李显龙自2004年开始担任新加坡总理。在今年的国庆群众大会演讲中，李显龙谈及接班人问题，他说新的领导人需要在下次大选，也就是2020年后不久接班。自建国以来，新加坡三位领导人都实现了平稳交接和确定性的重要特点，并且让接班人在正式上任前有长时间的准备，但现阶段新加坡尚未有明显的接班人选出现。长期执政的人民行动党在2011年大选中受到来自反对党的严峻挑战，虽然在去年的选举中收复失地但并不敢懈怠。

“这需要时间，但我拥有一个由年轻部长们组成的优秀班子，我相当确信在他们之中，一位领导人会脱颖而出。”李显龙说。

如果亚洲不稳定，

将意味着更多麻烦

《财经》：亚洲的地区形势日益被视为影响全球稳定的潜在危机触发点，在中国看来这是由美国的亚太再平衡战略导致。新加坡表示欢迎美国的回归，奥巴马总统说你的父亲在帮助他制定亚太再平衡政策中发挥了至关重要的作用。你如何看待你父亲对美国的建议？

李显龙：我不确定奥巴马说了什么，或者我的父亲对他们说了什么，但我想奥巴马总统一定有自己的理由。从美国的角度看，“二战”后亚洲对美国一直都很重要，到现在已经过去70多年了。美国对亚洲的繁荣、稳定和安全做出巨大的贡献。他们在这一地区有投资、有朋友、有利益，所以我认为他们想要更多关注亚洲是可以理解的，亚洲国家也可以理解。奥巴马总统和习主席都说过，太平洋足够大，容得下中美两国。

《财经》：你也曾公开提出过美国从未离开过亚洲。2012年你在中央党校发表演讲时说中国不应当将美国视为正在衰落的大国，而是一个能够创新和重振旗鼓的国家。这是否在暗示，中国对美国在当今世界地位的判断有误？

李显龙：我认为中国对美国有非常好的认识，你们有非常能干的外交官。两国领导人定期会晤，能够很好地把握两国关系的脉搏。我只是提出我们的观点。在中国繁荣发展的同时，美国在很长一段时间内还将继续在世界扮演重要角色。

《财经》：你是否认为美国和中国在竞争对东盟的影响力，东盟在其中又该如何定位？

李显龙：对影响力的竞争常在，但也有合作的机会。亚洲国家，当然包括新加坡，也有其他很多国家，既是中国的好朋友，也是美国的好朋友。我们希望成为两者的好朋友。

如果中美之间能够很好地合作那当然最好。我们很高兴看到习主席和奥巴马总统定期会面并从战略层面讨论问题。双方有很多合作的领域，比如气候变化。两个国家刚刚宣布将批准巴黎协定，这是非常重要的一步，对世界来说也是好事。但中美之间也存在问题，如南海问题。我们希望这些问题能够得到很好的处理，不会影响整体关系。

《财经》：由于东盟成员国利益和关注点不同，在越来越多的东盟会议上内部共识难以达成。新加坡一向倡导东盟应团结，你对此是否感到忧虑？

李显龙：这要看具体问题。在有些问题上成员国的利益是一致的，我们可以合作。在另一些问题上利益或许不那么一致。不同成员有不同看法，我们需要求同存异，或者进行妥协，就东盟各国共识的基础要素达成一致。

东盟由十个主权国家组成，不存在一种机制可以让我们说想要这样做，所有国家就必须服从。但我认为东盟应当尽可能凝聚在一起，发挥作用，成为能与中国、日本、美国或欧盟合作的重要伙伴，同时对经济合作和安全合作的区域架构做出贡献。

如果东盟分裂，东南亚将成为各种力量相互竞争、角力、内斗的地方，这将加剧地区紧张局势，对所有东盟国家都不利。这对其他大国也没有好处，因为一个不稳定的亚洲意味着更多麻烦，合作的能力也将受到影响。

《财经》：对包括新加坡在内的很多东盟国家来说，与中国的关系建立在密切的经济关系上。中国经济进入新常态，这将如何影响与东盟各国的关系？

李显龙：中国经济不再像以前那样高速增长，但有很多转型机会。我刚刚访问了重庆，那里3000万人口，经济一年可以增长10％。还有很多地区仍在迅速发展，所以仍然会有很多合作机会。

我们当然希望中国能够实现经济转型和结构性调整，中国正致力于此。这是一个非常困难的过程，需要时间。但如果成功实现，中国将在今后很多年继续改善人们的生活水平；这意味着中国在未来10年或20年仍然可以保持百分之五、六的增速，这将带来很大的不同。

《财经》：全球经济增速放慢对于新加坡和这一地区又有何影响？

李显龙：我们和全球经济一起繁荣发展。如果它放缓，对我们会有负面影响。这意味着我们要在国内更加努力以实现增长。对地区来说，要互相合作使亚洲向前发展。这也是为什么我们认为区域合作如此重要，重组和升级也是。

现在还很难预测TPP结果

《财经》：你在访美时力推TPP早日批准生效。但我们也知道，美国共和党总统候选人特朗普靠反对TPP获得了很多支持，希拉里·克林顿也越来越不愿支持TPP。你如何看待TPP的前景？

李显龙：TPP谈判已经完成，协议也已经签署，现在需要批准。这是所有参与者都需要完成的进程，在一些国家要比其他国家更加困难。其他TPP成员也需要批准这项协议，但最重要也是大家都在关注的，是美国接下来怎么做。

现在还很难预测事情的走向。在美国大选阶段，谈论或者支持自由贸易鲜受欢迎。我们希望在大选结束后还会有机会。要么是在1月之前国会“跛脚鸭”期间，或者是1月新总统上任后（批准TPP）。新总统面对这个问题需要作出符合美国国家利益的决定，会冷静看待。

TPP是一个非常重要的倡议，因为它是亚太地区实现自由贸易的路径之一。虽然没有包括所有亚太国家，但已经包括了很大一部分。我们希望未来还会扩展到其他国家。中国现在还不是TPP的成员。但如果TPP尘埃落定，能够得到批准，我相信中国会持续关注，也有加入的机会。韩国现在也不是TPP的成员，但它已经明确表示出兴趣，将在下一阶段加入。

我们在亚太地区还有其他一些贸易倡议，例如区域全面经济伙伴关系（RCEP）。我们相信需要迈向自由贸易，否则将失去很多合作的机会，各国之间的关系也会变得更加困难。

《财经》：显然你对TPP抱有积极态度和较为乐观的等待。区别于TPP, 你怎么看待RCEP对区域贸易的推动作用？

李显龙：这是中国、日本、韩国、东盟、印度以及澳大利亚和新西兰正在谈判的贸易协定。这个协定非常富有雄心，因为其成员非常多元，对待贸易的方式也不尽相同。所以我们还不确定协议能走到哪一步，最终会多有雄心。但我们认为方向是对的，因为在亚洲经济体中，贸易额显著增长。我们相互在进行贸易，也和中国有贸易往来。

中国是很多国家最大的贸易伙伴。因此我们可以结成一个相当重要、有意义的自由贸易协定，它覆盖所有这些群体。它将帮助实现亚洲区域内的合作，并为所有国家注入信心，即我们能够在一个公平环境里竞争，很好地展开合作。

看待世界我们尊重各自的观点

《财经》：你如何评估新加坡和中国的关系现状？你刚刚访问过重庆，你认为中新第三个政府间合作项目在多大程度上能帮助深化两国关系？

李显龙：这是一段广泛而充实的关系，新加坡和中国已经做了很长时间的朋友。我们在很多领域都有合作，经济、贸易、教育、文化和政治议题等，在东盟问题上也有合作。

中新关系最新的倡议是重庆战略性互联互通项目，我在重庆与重庆市委书记孙政才、市长黄奇帆都进行了交谈。这是一个重要的合作项目，它与“一带一路”倡议、长江经济带发展战略和西部大开发战略契合，所以利益也是契合的。它将加强新加坡和重庆，实际上也是新加坡与中国之间的经济联系。

我们和中国还有很多合作项目。在苏州有我们合作的第一个大项目，天津是另一个政府间项目，我们的公司遍布中国各大省市，这是一段广泛的关系。

但我们是两个国家，看待世界有各自的观点。我们有不同的重要利益、不同的国家政策和优先事项。通常它们是契合的，所以可以展开合作；有时，也会有不同的视角。我们尊重彼此的观点。

《财经》：中国与新加坡在国土面积和人口数量上大不相同，但新加坡模式仍值得中国思考或借鉴。新加坡采取了什么措施减少收入不平等和两极分化？这对中国现阶段来说非常重要。

李显龙：这个问题对我们也很重要。根本上，我们所做的是为人们提供生存需要的必需品，衣食住行。

我们提供政府组屋津贴，帮助在新加坡的每个人都能居者有其屋。我们提供良好教育，让每个人都有机会发展自己的技能，有能力谋生。我们提供良好的公共交通，因为这对城市人口是基本的便利设施。我们有良好的医疗。这些都是基本的事情，确保你在新加坡即使并不富裕，也能过上好的生活。

除此之外，在过去大约十年，很多国家的贫富差距明显加剧。我们采取非常明确的措施来缩小差距，比如税收政策、对低收入工人的激励政策等。我们推行就业奖励计划（Workfare）（一种援助低薪工友的措施）。如果你是一个低收入工人，工资在一定水平之下，当你做一份工作，政府会以现金或是社会保障福利等形式为你补贴一部分收入。政府也会补贴你的中央公积金存款。这相当于一种负所得税，帮助那些工作的低收入人士提高收入。

我们还推出了“建国一代配套”，这是给第一代新加坡人提供的医疗福利。建国一代如今年事已高，但他们在60年代新加坡独立时，为国家建设作出贡献。当时，薪水不像现在这么高。现在国家繁荣了，为了向建国一代致谢，我们专门为他们设立了特别的医疗福利配套。当他们年迈可以不用担心医疗费问题，这是人们在年岁渐长时的主要担忧。这只是我们正在做的事情的一部分。如果你看基尼系数，比较人们的收入、税后收入、经政府政策调整之后的收入，可以看到政策产生了很大的不同效果。

《财经》：你提到很多国家贫富差距明显加剧，这是全球治理要应对的挑战，但是实际方案需要由各国拿出。全球治理是否对此问题无解？

李显龙：挑战是相似的，但各国需要以自己的方式去应对。我们都面临的重大挑战是颠覆性的改变。

事物在快速变化，现有的方式不再那么奏效。新的方式出现，它们有优势，但守成者想要适应却并不容易。就像中国有滴滴快的，美国有Uber和Lyft。这对出租车公司和司机来说是个问题，但对乘客、开车的人和经济而言却是好事。人们想要这些选择。

那么如何应对这种颠覆的改变呢？我们应该帮助企业升级和重组，对经济进行重组。我们要帮助工人进行再培训，使他们适应新的工作。我们要调整好监管环境，使变化成为可能，但尽量以不那么具有破坏性的方式进行。

“不把自己和父亲做比较”

《财经》：我们能否谈谈交接问题？你有没有开始考虑你的接班人应当具备哪些素质和资历？

李显龙：我们知道需要哪些素质和资历，问题是谁能胜任这个位置，他/她能否和团队、和新加坡人民共同合作。我们在寻找具备判断力、经验和领导能力的人。这个人要能够理解问题、分析问题，与新加坡人民相通，能够向人民解释，动员大家一起合作以实现国家目标。这个人需要是一个动员者、一个沟通者，也要是一个行动者、分析家、实践者和团队建设者。

这需要时间，但我拥有一个由年轻部长们组成的优秀班子，我相当确信在他们之中，一位领导人会脱颖而出。

《财经》：为下一代领导做准备时，你会做出哪些变化确保成功的继续？

李显龙：政策需不停地适应和变化。李光耀先生能在治理新加坡多年后成功实现新一代领导交班的一个原因，就在于政策不是静止不变的，治理风格也不是。事实上，关于谁在推动政策也已发生变化。虽然他担任总理至1990年，但大约从80年代中期开始，越来越多的政策是由年轻一代领导人制定、推动和实施。所以在1990年，当新总理吴作栋先生接班后，这个过程非常顺利。

当吴作栋先生把权力交给我，情况也很相似，由更年轻的团队接班、定调。当我接班时没有出现意外，没有突然的变故或碰撞。这也是我现在希望做的，让年轻部长逐渐采取主动，向民众推广他们的方案，民众也将开始了解他们。

政策的内容也会发生变化，因为这是新一代人，他们关切和感兴趣的领域和过去也不一样，对于哪些问题优先，哪些事情重要，哪些是可以接受的政府行为等有新的观点。

如果我们继续这样调整，就能维持一个稳定、有效的政府。否则，如果政府变得越来越老，民众却是年轻的，其中的差距会越来越大。这是行不通的。

《财经》：你提到了你的父亲。你如何比较你自己和你的父亲？

李显龙：我不把自己和他做比较。

《财经》：你们有哪些相似和不同的地方？

李显龙：我们生活在非常不同的年代。他的年代充满动荡不安。他在新加坡建立了秩序，实现了新加坡的发展繁荣。我们生活在一个全新的时代，一个稳定的新加坡和一个不太确定的世界。

我们的工作并不是要把一切反转过来，或是从头来过，而是要在现有的基础上继续建设、改造，让它变得更好，更加适应明天。

(编辑：daisongyang)