Transcript of Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo's Interview with Astro Awani Television on 4 February 2008

Q: Minister Yeo, good morning. Thank you very much for having us here. Let us begin with talking about the general temperature of (the) relationship between Malaysia and Singapore. In your opinion, how are things nowadays?

Minister: Our bilateral relations are very good and getting better. Between the two countries, we are expanding our areas of cooperation. I believe in this new age of globalisation, the two countries will have to work more closely together. We have got to work together to strengthen ASEAN and to make sure that we are able to find our place in the sun given the rise of China and India.

Q: I see. Could you please share with me, what are the steps taken from your side that would ensure better ties and better trade? Where does Singapore stand? What is Singapore's effort in making this relationship flourish?

Minister: Because our two countries share so much in common in terms of our history, our culture, our heritage, the greater the connectivity between Singapore and Malaysia, the more will our two economies prosper in a synergistic way. So this recent launch of budget air services between Kuala Lumpur and Singapore, I think it's a big plus. And what we are working on to jointly promote the IDR (Iskandar Development Region) will be another boost to our two economies.

Q: Do you feel that this budget air service will actually facilitate the flow of Singaporeans to Malaysia and Malaysians to Singapore and if you do think so, what are the areas that will need improving on both sides to make this an even better experience for the people of both the countries?

Minister: The links between Kuala Lumpur and Singapore should be like those between New York and Boston or between Tokyo and Osaka. It's a very heavy trunk. The more we facilitate movement and the lower the prices, the better it will be for both countries, for both cities. I think that budget airlines would bring the cost of travel down and it's a win-win for both sides, so it should have been done earlier, in my view.

Q: Whereas before this, as opposed to now, the air travel between the two cities was monopolised or duopolised by the national carriers - that is, they were more expensive and it was mostly for businessmen. Now it opens up the gate to tourists, people who want to come to Singapore just for fun, so this improves trade and tourism. Apart from that, you have got many things happening in Singapore -you have got the GP (Grand Prix), you have got the Police concert. How I see it is these are tools to help boost trade and tourism for the region, not only for Singapore and Malaysia, but also for Indonesia and all countries around us especially post-ASEAN. So what are your comments on bringing up trade and tourism for the region itself? How can Singapore play a role in this?

Minister: Tourism is one obvious area in which what is good for one is good for the other. The more tourists come to Singapore, the more will tourists flow from Singapore to Malaysia. The more tourists go to Malaysia, the more will tourists flow to Singapore from Malaysia. So we should encourage the tourism industry in each other's territories. And having greater connectivity by road, by rail, by air between the two sides will promote tourism; it will be good for both sides. You take say the F1, the Singapore F1 will be a city circuit like Monaco. It will be at night, whereas KL has got a wonderful custom-built circuit. I was invited by Mokhzani (Mahathir) last year to attend F1 in Sepang and it was a wonderful experience. Together, we will promote F1 attendance in the region and more tourists will come, and those who come to one will likely go to the other as well. I believe this will be very good for both sides. This is just one example of the many areas which we can work together. You talk about Malaysians coming to Singapore for fun, but there are lots of Singaporeans wanting to go to Malaysia for fun and that's wonderful.

Q: It's good, but then some people would actually see it from the other side of the door where they see the two F1s colliding with each other and vying for each other's audience and support. Do you not think so?

Minister: No, I don't think so because many of those who attend F1 races are fans - they follow the cars, they follow the drivers. It stimulates a bigger market for F1 in Malaysia and Singapore, and the region. There will be some competition at the fringes, but I don't see as this being the main dynamic between the two sides.

Q: I see. Further down south from KL, Johor is actually experiencing greater development, the plan, the latest Malaysia plan, has set out a budget to develop Johor to a standard where some might see it as competing with Singapore. First of all, what are your comments on that?

Minister: No, not at all. We are very excited about the developments in the IDR. I have been briefed by Khazanah, I have been briefed by the Johor authorities. I have toured the waterways with MB Abdul Ghani before and I think the potential is huge and that we can work together - Malaysia having land and people and Singapore being short of both, the complimentality is an obvious one. And if we can improve connectivity between the two sides, the road links, facilitating the movement of people up and down, simplifying CIQ (Customs Immigration and Quarantine), maybe linking up the two urban rail systems, I think the prospects are very mutually beneficial. I feel optimistic about the IDR.

Q: Right. So from your point of view, it's actually quite positive - where the bilateral relationship between Malaysia and Singapore stands right now. Again, I spoke to some people, and some Singaporeans over here feel that more can be done. It's just that there are some niggling problems - water... not exactly issues that are life-threatening, but they feel that actually if we got together better, it would actually work out much better. How do you see Singaporeans, not exactly the Singapore government, but how do you think Singaporeans view the relationship between Malaysia and Singapore, coming from an outsider?

Minister: Between neighbours, there will always be niggling problems but the big game is one of cooperation. Naturally, some Singaporean businesses will be threatened by the IDR because it boosts businesses on the other side, but if you look at it from the overall perspective, the gains overwhelm the losses, both for Singapore and for Malaysia. Singapore will benefit a lot if the IDR takes off. I believe Malaysia will benefit even more, because you have the land and the resources. We can energise each other.

Q: I see. Going back to talking about relationships, may I please ask you where Iran and Israel stand on your political spectrum? How important are these two countries? Let's start with Iran first, how important is Iran in terms of having a relationship with them for Singapore?

Minister: We feel strongly that Iran should follow the decisions of the UN Security Council. This is important for peace, stability and nuclear non-proliferation in the world. We support whole-heartedly the position taken by the UN, and we urge Iran to observe the decisions taken by the Security Council.

Q: What about Israel? The reason I am asking is because Malaysia does not have political ties with Israel, as you might know. Most Malaysians feel that Singapore has very strong political ties with Israel, in fact not just political but then some...there are conspiracy theories going on saying it goes all the way to militarily and all that, but it's not something that most Malaysians take for fact. So how important is Israel to Singapore?

Minister: Singapore does have good links with Israel, including military links, but some of the conspiracy theories are quite remarkable. I see them on the Internet, I read about them, I hear about them. On Palestine, Singapore in fact has a very clear position, which is there must be a two-state solution. We have very good links with both Israel and with Palestine. When I was in Ramallah last year, I was quite surprised that they are... that Arafat used to hold up Singapore as a model for the Palestinian people. He told some of his colleagues, he said either we become, "we" meaning Palestine, become a Somalia or a Singapore. And some said with some sadness, we are becoming a Somalia. My reply to them was the circumstances are very different, but naturally if we can in any way be helpful to you in your own search to develop a nation, we will try to be helpful. But we are friendly to both sides and we understand the fears, the hopes of the ordinary people living on both sides and we wish them well. We don't take sides in this. We support a two-state solution.

Q: And since you mentioned that Singapore has been seen as a model for Palestine and to a certain degree, for Israel, there was a time before when Singapore was a model for many countries. But then now, you have other powers like China and India coming up and that is quite worrying for us in Malaysia simply because we are in the middle, where we played a very important role last time because we are in the middle, but now there are two points that are actually developing.

Minister: Well actually I don't see Singapore as a model for anybody because our circumstances are unique, and certainly the situation we have in Southeast Asia is dramatically different from the situation in the Middle East. The last thing we want is to compare our situation in Southeast Asia with the situation in Middle East. Yes, Singapore's experiment has attracted some interest from consulting groups and from various newly developing countries because they are searching for solutions. Naturally they look to Scandinavia, they look to Ireland, they look to Chile as possible approaches to take, and Singapore will always be cited by the literature because its success has impressed a lot of people. We have very little land, we have no resources yet despite all these, we have been able to scratch out a living for ourselves, so that has been an object of interest. But we are an experiment; we made mistakes, we have some successes and naturally others will learn from us, as we have learnt from others.

You are right that with the rise of China and India, the whole landscape changes and the world's economic centre of gravity is moving towards Asia and in 30, 40, 50 years' time, it will be in Asia. We have got to position ourselves for that future and both Malaysia and Singapore are convinced that our survival chances are much improved if we work together as an ASEAN region. It is for this reason that both Kuala Lumpur and Singapore are very ardent advocates of a stronger integrated ASEAN. We both, Syed Hamid and I, we worked very closely together on the ASEAN Charter and to push the ASEAN project along.

Q: Post-ASEAN, what are the developments that has been done, that have been agreed from ASEAN? What are the promises that were made that have been fulfilled thus far?

Minister: First, among the ten countries, we should progressively reduce barriers to trade. For goods, we are fast becoming a free trade area; for services, we have got a long way to go; for investments we can liberalise much more, so we can do many things to make the whole of ASEAN a single economic space. We are almost 600 million people, so we are quite big, and if we are united and integrated, we will be able to hold our own vis-à-vis China, vis-à-vis India, vis-à-vis other continents. The key here is maintaining the political will for integration and then positioning ASEAN in such a way that all the major powers in the world, wish us well - America, Japan, China, India and Europe. The key to this being that we must be neutral, we must open to them, we must not take sides and we must welcome their investments, welcome their people to invest here, to travel here, to create a home here. And ASEAN is becoming more and more like that, so we are in a very good position where all the major powers in the world wish us well because our wellness is to their benefit.

Q: We are going on about position here. What is Singapore's strength in terms of developing ASEAN? I am sure you will agree with me if I said every different country has a different role to play, so what role does Singapore play? Is it the big brother in financing or in trade? What is it then?

Minister: Singapore cannot be a big brother, we are just plodding along trying to survive the best we can, but because we are the most advanced economy and the most open economy in Southeast Asia, so naturally when other countries are liberalising and globalising, they will find in Singapore certain lessons that they can learn for themselves. So Singapore provides services to others in the region, and they will avail themselves of these services to the extent that they find valuing.

Q: But Minister Yeo, I feel that you are being very modest in saying that Singapore is plodding along, I think it's more like Singapore is actually leading the economy of Asian countries. Singapore can be seen as an example where the West can look at the Asian region, the ASEAN region, and look at Singapore and say well, if all ASEAN countries actually pick up after how Singapore manages its economy, then the ASEAN region will be very strong. Wouldn't you agree that's actually the strength of Singapore?

Minister: I think that's simplistic. We are a city-state. We don't have farmers, that simplifies our trade policy and that simplifies our politics tremendously.

Q: That's my point you see, resources are low, yet you still manage to make it big, you have got the best facilities. I know it's probably because you are a small city-state therefore it's easier to manage, however you manage it in exemplary ways that other cities must make an effort to adapt to actually make their states better, so I think you are actually setting a good example. Singapore is setting a good example. I mean, I myself have been here for four days and I wish to stay longer because I like the way things are run here. So, perhaps that is the strength of Singapore?

Minister: Well thank you for the compliment, but somehow we don't feel this way. When we travel, we are very conscious of the competition. It can be from Shanghai, tomorrow it can be Bombay, it is Kuala Lumpur, it is Bangkok, it is Hong Kong; we don't feel that we have a comfortable lead in any area. Whatever we do here, others can replicate and do better because they have the land, they have the resources, they have the market. So in that sense, we always have to work harder and try to stay ahead. But how do we stay ahead all the time when nothing we do here is a secret? So Changi Airport has Terminal 3, but Malaysia has a wonderful new airport in Sepang, Bangkok has now got maybe the most advanced airport in Southeast Asia. If you look at the airports in China, I just read in the newspapers the other day that they are building almost 100 new airports in China and they intend to leapfrog everybody. And if you visit India, they have huge ambitions as well. You go further west to the Gulf, their ambitions have no limit. Yes in some areas, Singapore may appear to have some lead, but these are not big margins that we enjoy. If you stay a few more days in Singapore, you will know that Singaporeans are worriers because being a city-state, we don't have a comfortable buffer. Maybe that's what keeps us sharp and on the ball, and others when they look at us, they say oh, you are doing wonderfully well, but then when you are here, you always feel a little insecure and vulnerable.

Q: I suppose so, but you may also be very proud of the people who wear the thinking caps in Singapore because they continuously innovate, always innovate. You don't have enough land to build the track, let's have one in middle of the city and let's make it at night to make it even more exciting. So you actually have a great pool of people here who are good thinkers. In certain Asian countries, the fact that there is little possibility to expand for the people themselves make them go abroad, thus creating a brain-drain. Does Singapore suffer that same problem?

Minister: You know that what you have just said about necessity about being mother of invention is how we comfort ourselves. You are right. We did consider building a separate track for F1 almost twenty years ago. I remember one of the early Deputy Chairmen of the Singapore Tourism Board, Lim Chin Beng, he proposed an F1 circuit in Singapore years before Sepang. At that time, we considered it carefully, and we said, "Look, we don't have much land in Singapore, and we don't have all that to sterilise for a circuit because the circuit can only be used maybe for a short period in a year". So we decided no, that's not possible. But later we cracked our heads and said, "Look, maybe we can do a Monaco, but then it can create disruption to normal life. What about having it at night, where maybe the roads are less used?" So in that sense, necessity pushed us in certain directions and sometimes as you said, to more innovative ideas. So we do comfort ourselves that having no choice and not having land or resources, sometimes forced us to look for new ways of doing things. But we don't always succeed.

Q: I believe this is where, if I remember correctly it was Minister Mentor Lee, who said that one of his regrets of what he did when he was in power was actually to have the circuit in Singapore.

Minister: I think he lamented that we did not embark on this earlier.

Q: Yes, but well you are doing quite well now. You have got a race that the whole fraternity of F1 fans are looking forward to, because it's a Monaco at night with the potential for heavy downpours. The last person who could actually handle such a track course was Michael Schumacher and he retired, so this looks to me like a great date on the F1 calendar. So congratulations on that to begin with.

Minister: I hope that it will go well because there will be bumps.

Q: Of course. So what are your comments then on generally people coming into Singapore? As you said it's a city-state, you have got limited resources and then you are going to have this sporting event that will bring thousands and thousands and thousands of people. I mean it's great for business but will Singapore be able to cope with it?

Minister: That's a problem that we have got to solve. This is not a theme park, this is home for us. It's a home which keeps its doors open to visitors, to foreigners who come deep into our midst, into the housing estates, into our schools, into our shopping centres, into our neighbourhood food courts. And Singaporeans sometimes get upset by this because prices go up or foreigners have habits which we are not familiar with, they make friends with our girls, I mean so there are all kinds of problems which we face because we are opening up even more than before. Last year we had 10 million tourists, in five or ten years' time, we expect almost a doubling so it's going to be a very cosmopolitan kind of city and there will be problems. You open the windows, the flies come in, and of course you also get fresh air and the sunshine. So we worry about this, we are trying to anticipate all the possible problems and ameliorate the effects. I don't think we will succeed, we will make mistakes but we have to learn from those mistakes and Singaporeans have to adjust. They have got to accept the fact that if we are going to make a good living for ourselves, this is the world we live in. Foreigners will come here, some will seek roots here, Singaporeans will also leave and seek roots elsewhere and if we can somehow turn Singapore from being just a point into a kind of network, having an extended family of relatives and friends, then our lives will be a little better. But you are right that this requires certain psychological adjustments, certain cultural adjustments on the part of ordinary Singaporeans. This is not easy and if we are not careful, if we change too fast, there will be a political reaction.

Q: It was very interesting what you said about family and friends, Singaporean family and friends, friends of Singapore. I'd just like to go back a bit to when we spoke about ASEAN and the roles that we can play. One of our brothers, Myanmar is having a little bit of a problem. Malaysia is trying very hard, apart from sending aid, but then we are also trying very hard to very softly and subtly coerce towards a better government management. What does Singapore feel about Myanmar and what do you think Singapore can do?

Minister: It is very sad what is happening there. It is an awkward member of the family that often prefers to be left alone. During the last ASEAN Summit, we tried to get everybody to meet Gambari, the UN Special Envoy, together, but Myanmar said no. They preferred to deal with Gambari directly through the UN without ASEAN playing a role. That night when the leaders met at an informal dinner, they pleaded with the Myanmar Prime Minister but he was adamant. So what we do with a family member who is like that? They want more space, I suppose we have to give them more space. It is awkward for us to defend them internationally because we don't know what is happening in their country most of the time. When they shifted to their new capital, it was a surprise to us. And when non-family members asked us about it, we had no answer. It was an embarrassment for the family, but what do we do? They are still a member of the family, we cannot say, "Look, we deny that you are a member." So we have to go along and find a way to live with the situation without being held back by it and all the time telling them, "Look, we are quite happy to embrace you as a member of the family, the day you feel that you want the family." So this is a rather uncomfortable situation that we have.

Q: But why do you think they have reacted in such a way? Because Myanmar was trying very hard to get into ASEAN, to be part of the family, then all of a sudden, they said "No, I will deal straight with the UN, I'm sidelining ASEAN in this case." Why do you think they reacted as such?

Minister: I think the dynamics of their domestic politics are quite complicated. They have got many ethnic groups, they have got the junta that has been in power for a long time that may not be completely in touch with the aspirations of their people. We know that talking to Myanmar citizens in Malaysia and in Singapore that they are very unhappy with what's happening at home. If you know them well and talk to them, they pour their hearts out to you and what do we do? We cannot reject them as members of the family so where we can help, we try to help. We can only help to the extent that the government wants us to help, but we have to be patient.

Q: It is part of the ASEAN Charter that member countries actually do not meddle in the domestic squabbles of each country. So how far can Malaysia and Singapore go in this?

Minister: Only to a point because what is the essence of being in a family? Yes, each member is autonomous. Each member has his own right to do the things that he wants to do, but every member is expected to take into account the concerns of the family. So we cannot accept that Myanmar should be left absolutely alone. It wants its own space, fair enough, but beyond that point what it does has an effect on the family and what's happening there does have an effect on all of us.

Q: Right Minister Yeo, let's move on to something a little bit lighter. Singapore, Malacca and Penang historically have a link.

Minister: We are part of the Straits Settlements.

Q: Yes, we are part of the Straits Settlements. I am from Penang. I am very proud of that fact and I feel that Singaporeans are kindred. Heritage-wise we have so much in common. So how can Singapore actually... is Singapore using this to bring people in to share with the world?

Minister: Our common heritage as part of the Straits Settlements continues to bind us together. So there's a common Baba culture, somehow when Penangites and Malaccans and Singaporeans meet, they feel a sense of closeness which is unusual and special and I believe an asset. When I was in charge of tourism as Minister for Trade and Industry, I tried to promote a Straits product for tourists to travel to these former territories as one package, and I think we should still continue to promote it. There is no doubt that when we visit each other, we feel a sense of closeness.

Q: True, so you actually feel that it is a rather positive part of history that should never be forgotten and should be developed even further?

Minister: I don't think it will be forgotten because the modern economy reunites us. There are a lot of Singapore investments in Malacca and Penang, and they continue to be some of the most popular destinations for Singaporeans when they travel overseas.

Q: And of course what also binds us is the fact that the Straits Settlements was part of the British Empire. However there are some, I know that this might sound quite bad, because I am actually quoting blogs that I have read but then there are many people writing that the role of the Commonwealth is non-existent anymore, but nonetheless it is a very nice fraternity to be in. So do you think this will go on? I mean the Commonwealth, where does it stand in the future?

Minister: The legacy of the British Commonwealth is deeper than many people realise. We share a common inheritance, not just political systems, but also in professional standards, legal standards, accounting standards. We share a common legacy in law, in the English language, and the way we do things, in the protection of property. It is when countries depart from some of those old standards that they get into trouble like in Zimbabwe; but when we hew close to those standards, we do well and in the new age of globalisation, with English being the lingua franca of the world and Anglo-Saxon norms in accounting and in property laws, and in international market operations and finance, continue to hold sway. Malaysia and Singapore, Malacca, Penang and Singapore, all enjoy a legacy which is a huge asset.

When I negotiated the free trade of agreement with India, in a moment of lightness, I would tell my Indian friends that all it does is to restore the position of the Raj, but as independent countries where traders, lawyers, doctors, accountants could travel up and down freely. It would be wonderful and if we could restore that between Singapore and Malaysia and India, and some other members of the Commonwealth. I think it is very good for us. Far from it being obsolete or a thing in the past, I believe in the new age of globalisation, with the political transformation respecting the independence of countries, it can be down to our common good, the true "common wealth".

Q: So in other words, to sum up, Singapore and Malaysia are at a point where we will cherish the past, we will use it as tools and ideas to develop the relationship further not just between us, but between the region around us and the world in the greater picture. So what are your final words on the whole general scene of things?

Minister: Because we inherited certain common standards and we improve on them, so we are able to solve problems in a friendly, civilised way. You take say the dispute over Pedra Branca, or what Malaysia calls Pulau Batu Putih. Both sides have agreed that we put the case to the ICJ (International Court of Justice). Both sides have tried their best and in a few months time, the decision will be made and both sides agreed that whatever the decision taken, we will abide by it. We will not be happy but we will maintain good relations. Syed Hamid said that recently, I should echo his sentiments that on this issue, we have no difference that we will abide by the decision of the ICJ. This is a very civilised way of handling a bilateral dispute, which will not be resolved in any other way. I believe this should be an example of how relations in ASEAN should be ordered, and the new Charter which has very good built-in dispute settlement mechanisms, should help us bring about a better future for all of us.

Q: Actually you are quite right there. When I spoke to Syed Hamid about Pedra Branca, he said those exact words. He said regardless of who wins, it should not tarnish the mirror, because the relationship will have to flow in a positive manner regardless of what happens to Pedra Branca.

On that note, I would like to say thank you for your time and I wish you the best of luck, first and foremost, for the Singapore GP because I am sure it will be a fantastic event. I am looking forward to it. I am a big F1 fan which is why I am here in Singapore and I wish that the two governments can actually work better and the ties will be much stronger after this. Thank you so much for your time, Minister.

Minister: Thank you.

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