Transcript of interview with Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo by Singapore media representatives

Q: Maybe you would like to start off by telling us the broad objectives and aims of the 40th anniversary and the ASEAN Summit?

Minister: The high point of the summit will be the signing of the ASEAN Charter. When we embarked on this process two and a half years ago at the retreat of the Foreign Ministers, we never expected that we would arrive at this point. We formed an Eminent Persons Group which was launched at the Kuala Lumpur Summit almost two years ago and then when that report was accepted, the High Level Task Force did the drafting which had to address a number of important issues like how are we going to settle disputes among ourselves, whether we wanted a human rights body and so on. But throughout the process, there was more political will than I expected there to be earlier on. And every time we had to confront an issue, no ducking, we made a decision and we moved on. The last bits were cleared when the Foreign Ministers met in New York at the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. So now we have a Charter to sign. Now even though it has not been released officially, copies are available on the website because the Thai parliament had to debate it as part of a new procedure. So it's no longer a secret what's inside. There is no mention of sanctions or expulsions because immediately, officials wondered whether we were referring to a particular situation or a particular country and it was awkward, but in fact what it means is for ultimate issues, it will be referred back to the Leaders when they meet at their Summits. In such situations, the Leaders will act as a committee of peers deciding on their own internal procedures and making their own decisions.

This is not something new. A number of years ago when Myanmar as an issue cropped up, Goh Chok Tong was at that time Prime Minister, he got the leaders to meet in a side room, no officials present, no media coverage, no recording and following which ASEAN began to issue statements calling for the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and asking Myanmar to adhere to their own road to democracy. In that sense, Myanmar was also a party to those statements. So for ultimate issues, it's always possible for Leaders to meet and decide among themselves what they want to do. For other issues - governing the implementation of agreements, governing disputes concerning particular ASEAN instruments, then of course more and more we are executing specific disputes settlement mechanisms. So for all economic instruments for example, we have enhanced disputes settlement mechanisms which follow international conventions. Over a period of time, an ASEAN jurisprudence would evolve and countries will see the need for to have lawyers craft agreements carefully anticipating possible disputes and litigation; all this represents an important step forward towards making ASEAN a rules-based and a rules-bound organisation. It will take time but what we are doing now is we are re-setting our direction by a few degrees. Initially, you may ask what's the difference? Well step by step, five years time, ten years time, twenty years time, very different end points for ASEAN.

But whatever rules we devise for ourselves for the most difficult political issues, it is leadership which matters. You take for example the crackdown of peaceful demonstrators in Myanmar few weeks ago. We were not sure at that time whether Myanmar was going to come or not to the Summit. We were not sure what was going to happen to the country but we had no doubt when the Leaders met in Singapore, they would decide, well, whether Myanmar comes or not, we have got to move forward and the Charter would still have been signed. I mean, leaving a space for Myanmar to sign on later when they were ready. So these are contingencies which you cannot write into rules beforehand. What we are saying is, where we can define the situation, we define it, then when we cannot, let's not pretend to be surer than we are; have enabling provisions in the charter and for the most difficult issues, refer them back to the leaders who will then have to draw upon their collective wisdom to find a way forward. So it is a very important milestone in the history of ASEAN.

We've been at it for 40 years, which kept the peace in Southeast Asia and enabled the countries to develop. Singapore has gone from a third world country to a first world country because we have peace around us and now even Vietnam, which used to be on the other side, is making rapid strikes into the future. One can be optimistic for ASEAN as a whole but there are problems like the one we are now facing in Myanmar. We hope Myanmar will not dominate the agenda in the coming meeting. Good progress has been made so far through the good offices of the UN and the Special Advisor Ibrahim Gambari and it was significant, the statement which Gambari read on behalf of Aung San Suu Kyi in Singapore. She took a positive approach and expressed a certain hopefulness about the future and subsequently when she met members of her party in Yangon, when she was allowed to meet members of her own party in Yangon, she said she was very optimistic. That surprised me - her remark, but who are we to second guess her? She who is incarcerated is optimistic. Well, therefore we must be optimistic. For this reason, when Ibrahim Gambari went back to the UN to give his assessment of the last visit, even the US came around and expressed confidence in his good offices. So I believe we are more likely than not to have good meetings in Singapore but the critical meeting will be the first night's informal Leaders' Dinner for ASEAN leaders on the 19th. That's a family dinner, there will be no officials present; there will be no closed-circuit television, it's just the Leaders meeting among themselves. We expect Myanmar to be discussed at that meeting. If we can arrive at a common position, that will be very helpful for the process of national reconciliation in Myanmar, it will mean that we all lined up behind Ibrahim Gambari. And if ASEAN has a unified position, then when the EAS leaders meet on the 21st of November, China, Japan and India will line up with us. I have visited them in order to have this common understanding and I'm quite sure if we have a common position in ASEAN, then they are with us. So the EAS meeting was really made for this because all of them will be there. Of course there are other countries - Australia, New Zealand and Korea. I'm sure they will come along too. PM has invited Ibrahim Gambari to brief us at that meeting. They can exchange views with him, and then the Leaders will be on their own at lunch to discuss Myanmar and other issues. These are on the 21st. And if all the EAS leaders, building around the core ASEAN position can also come out with a statement to support Gambari, to support the process of national reconciliation in Myanmar, calling for a time bound road to democracy, then there are less chances of backsliding after the Summit. Because all the Summit countries will gear up for that position, but if we don't maintain the pressure for forward movement then there could be backsliding, which would be bad for the people of Myanmar, which would be bad for us in Southeast Asia. So if we have a good solid position in the EAS then that enhances our position for the future.

The other issue which took some finessing is the Human Rights Body which we agreed to establish in ASEAN. The problem has been postponed because what matters is the content, which has not yet been decided. So two simple paragraphs, significant not in themselves but significant in the fact that they are in the Charter. We could not call the body a 'commission' which some countries wanted because that suggested more than other countries felt the body should be, so a generic term was agreed upon. There was a debate whether it should be under the Organs chapter or some other chapter. We settled that and put it in under the Organs chapter. There was a debate in the listing of Organs where it should be. We settled that in New York. I don't quite know what we will eventually agree upon given the positions of the newer member states. I doubt if we would have, ... I'm not sure if it will have teeth but it will certainly have a tongue. You know, to paraphrase Bagehot when he wrote in the English Constitution about the British monarch, whether or not it has teeth, the human rights body will have the right to admonish, to criticise, to encourage. It will certainly have moral influence if nothing else. But these are details for the future. Maybe I will end here and I'll take your questions. Yes please, where are you from?

Q: Tze Yong from New Paper.

Minister: New Paper.

Q: For it to be successful, right, the government has to sell the idea of ASEAN to the people, so for the moment without going into the philosophy and the history of Asia and without using a diplomat's language, how would you sell this idea to get them excited on the ASEAN Charter.

Minister: This will take time. If you look at the European experience, it was initially a construction of the elite, of leaders coming together after the Second World War deciding that they should no longer fight one another but should establish a common space for their political integration and economic development. So step by step, deepening and enlarging, and then through various programmes like Inter-Rail, like the ERASMUS programme, facilitating the free movement of people, of scholars, of students, creating a sense of European's citizenship. They are still Frenchmen and Germans and Poles, but there is increasingly among younger Europeans a sense that they are also European citizens. I was chatting with a senior FCO official a few months ago. He was quite open. He said, "My son feels much more European than I do"! The challenge for us is how we get our children to feel more ASEAN than we do. It will take time but step by step as knowledge of ASEAN widens, as we confront crisis together, as we see the advantages of collaboration, then the younger generation will feel more committed to ASEAN and internalise its values and its aspirations.

Coming back to Myanmar again, nothing has done more in recent months to give a sense of relevance to ASEAN among ordinary Singaporeans than Myanmar. Suddenly some of us said "Yes, ASEAN has got something to do about it and ASEAN must be part of the solution." So as we confront crisis from time to time, that will help us define our identity, our common identity. Of course we should also do things like cultural events, dance festivals, scholarships, youth exchanges, song contests, bicycle rides. Do the little things which are fun, which are engaging and gradually get the younger people to feel, "oh this is something worth doing".

Q: Do you think it was a dampener when people felt disappointed in the way ASEAN reacted to the Myanmar situation, when people wanted action; whereas ASEAN reacted saying that we must support Mr Gambari, not to take anymore concrete action than it already had. So do you think in that sense people, you know you got them interested but then yet you put a sort of, it was something that made them disappointed?

Minister: Well, there is a range of views. I think some Singaporeans felt that we should have done more. A few might have wanted us to cut off all links with Myanmar. But there are many Singaporeans who are in fact quite comfortable with the position we are taking, of being firm but staying engaged.

Q: What would you consider a good desired outcome as a Singapore Chair from this Summit?

Minister: In the chair, our responsibility is to receive the ball from the Filipino Chair without dropping it, take it forward and pass it to the Thais who are next in the Chair, without dropping it. So it's not that we are initiating new policies or deciding on big things. We are part of a process in ASEAN and while we are in the chair, we have certain responsibilities to further the common cause and when sudden events come upon us like Myanmar we act responsibly, and that's what we have tried hard to do for this Summit. All we can do is to help facilitate, act out the common will of ASEAN. It's not as if we are taking charge and making decisions on behalf of others. I would say if we can have a good common position on Myanmar and not allow it to cloud or dampen our celebrations of the signing of the Charter, and then work together with our EAS colleagues and culminate in a good celebration of the 30th anniversary of the ASEAN-European relations, then we would have done well.

Q: You've been increasingly travelling to various countries in East Asia. Can you tell us about some of your discussions or your concerns in getting leverage over China and India?

Minister: My visits to Tokyo, Beijing and Delhi were principally to consult on Myanmar. Each had its own perspective. None acting on its own could have been fully effective but if we coordinate and act together, I believe we can play a helpful role in the process of national reconciliation in Myanmar. And this was put to me in a very forthright way by Mr Pranab Murkherjee when I called on his just a few days ago in Delhi. He said it can't just be India and China. It has to be India, China and ASEAN together. And I believe there is enough common understanding for us to make that happen next week.

Q: But we are looking to ASEAN and ASEAN is looking to them.

Minister: We have to work together. ASEAN by itself can't do very much and we have to be very realistic about that, but ASEAN is family so this gives us a moral standing. China and India have long borders with Myanmar. All three of us have a vested interest in the country staying stable and moving onto the road of development in democracy. So on Myanmar, we share fundamentally common interests. Of course China and India eye each other suspiciously because Myanmar is a buffer state between the two countries. And India when it gave Aung Sang Suu Kyi the Nehru prize in the early 1990s, saw its relations with Yangon go down and they are concerned that China has too much influence over Myanmar, so they want a balance. China has built good roads into Myanmar. India is building good roads into Myanmar as well, not just to the border but into cities in Myanmar. If we manage this process well, then by welcoming both we become their meeting place and their connecting point, which is what we should always strive to be in Asia in this century. ASEAN as a collection of ten countries integrated, having excellent relations with both and riding on their growth and development.

Q: In a climate of increasingly vocal opposition and upcoming polls, there is a chance that ruling governments will not last. How do you see this affecting the directions set by ASEAN now?

Minister: It's for people living in the country to determine the form of government they have. This is the principle of respect and non-interference. But of course, no country is autarchic; what happens within a country can have effects on its friends and neighbours. What its friends and neighbours do can have an effect on what goes within the country, so to that extent we are connected. We have an interest, but in the end we must accept that it is up to the people in their country to determine their own destiny. We may do many things about Myanmar, (but) in the end it is the Myanmar people who have to settle their own future. In the end it is the government, the various ethnic groups, Aung Sang Suu Kyi, the NLD, the army, who have to compromise and decide what kind of society and country they ought to be. In the end they suffer the most from the consequences or benefit most from the consequences, depending on the outcome. Yes, please?

Q: Sir, coming back to the Charter, what do you think is the biggest challenge in the implementation of the Charter and what is the significance to Singapore particularly? Another question is the environment agenda will be one of the key deliverables of the Summit this year. How would Singapore share our experience in our greenification and all our experience in the environment with the other dialogue partners?

Min: Your first question about what next after the Charter. The immediate next step is the ratification, which can be a protracted process in some countries like the Philippines. I had lunch with the ASEAN Ambassadors yesterday. I put it to them that we need to set a target for ourselves. One year to get all the countries to ratify the Charter so that in a year's time when we meet in Bangkok, the Charter can come into force. And to mark it there should be a ceremony, an event for everybody to work towards, a way to put pressure on ourselves. The Thais have always been keen for the Charter to be signed in the old Saranarom palace in Bangkok where the original instrument establishing ASEAN was signed 40 years ago on 8th of August. And it will be very symbolic when next year, when all the countries have ratified the Charter, we have a ceremony there to say "Look, yes finally, we are onto a new course and once again we meet in Bangkok to celebrate it", so that's what we're hoping to do. Then beyond that, there will always be disputes and endless arguments over a whole range of issues but that's alright. That's all part of community building that we're always talking. As Churchill once said, "Better jaw, jaw than war, war", and the fact that we have meetings, the fact that we learn to live with one another, that we forge bonds of friendship, camaraderie and trust, that's all part of community building. And that's what in the end will create a sense of ASEAN citizenship.

Your second question is a very important one about the environment and climate change. In fact, it is the organising theme of our conference - "Environmental protection, energy, climate change and sustainable development". There is a very important meeting coming up in Bali in December - the UN Framework Convention for Climate Change which will be chaired by Indonesia and when I called on President SBY last week, I told him that Prime Minister Lee has instructed Cabinet ministers to give full support to that conference. It is a very important conference for the future. It will determine what we as countries on this planet have got to do together to slow down global warming. We know that human activity has contributed to it. We're not quite sure by how much. And if we must err, let us err on the side of safety. But this work can only be done if all of us act together. You cannot restrict your own emissions when others are busily pumping away carbon to the atmosphere. The US, big countries like China and India must be brought in. There will be some very hard bargaining and you need in the end, rules that are simple enough to be enforced and those who are in breach either shamed or put under pressure into changing behaviour. The negotiations will not be easy. They are targeting for the post-Kyoto agreement to be settled by 2009. Kyoto runs out in 2012, I think. So two years between Bali then Copenhagen, and in between... I can't remember now but anyway, two years' time in Copenhagen to settle it. The key is to have a good launch in Bali setting out clear terms of reference. So that meeting is very important and I expect climate change to be a key agenda item at all the meetings coming up next week.

You ask what Singapore can do. We have shown that looking after the environment is not only something desirable. It also enhances our economy. It facilitates growth and development for our people. Well done and done in time, it is not something you do at the expense of economic development. Far from that. It is something that you do to preserve your long-term economic development. So we have in Singapore a living habitat which is attractive and which is one reason why we've been able to attract people to establish headquarters here, to put their money here, to live here, to study here, and to have their healthcare done here. It is a very important element in our success. I'm not sure about countries but many other cities in the region have come here to study our example, because they too want an attractive municipal environment.

What we need to do is to get beyond the level of cities to the level of countries because that is the level where decisions are made. The global agreement on climate change requires countries to act in concert, not just cities. Here, Singapore will be a responsible player. At all international forums, we will play an active role. I'm not quite sure what influence we will have because there are many big countries who are the major players, but if we are objective and fair, from time to time, we might be able to help bridge differences. This is a role that we play in the WTO. I believe that this is a role we can play in global discussions on climate change.

On our side, we are creating an institute for urban living, some such name. But basically responding to growing global interest in the way we protect and enhance the environment here in Singapore, encouraging exchange and creating a platform where knowledge can be brought together so that everybody can benefit from it. So we can't tell what other countries around us should do or can do but we can by example and by creating a platform, help spread ideas that they themselves will find useful and helpful.

Q: Just to follow up, you said that Singapore is going to find ways to help other countries. In what ways will we help Indonesia?

Minister: We will work with the Indonesians and we will be a friend of the Chair and we will be helpful to the Chair. That's the position that we will take and I have told Pak Hassan (Wirajuda) and I have communicated this also to president SBY, that if there is any area where Indonesia would like us to play a helpful role, just let us know. We will try our best.

Q: Have they asked for anything yet?

Minister: I think at the officials' level, we have a sense of what they want to achieve and through direct and indirect we will try to be helpful.

Q; Minister, earlier you said that Myanmar may not sign at this Summit but may sign later. Maybe you can explain how this process is because from...

Minister: No they're coming for the Summit. That was just hypothetical. I was saying that after the crackdown, when things were still unclear, we were not quite sure what was going to happen.

Q: So they are signing at the Summit, that's confirmed?

Minister: Oh yes of course. You're from Berita Harian?

Q: No I'm from TODAY newspaper.

Min: TODAY newspaper?

Q: Yes.

Q: Minister, the ASEAN Charter is very important.

Minister: You're from New Paper? Ok.

Q: Yes, the ASEAN Charter is very important but to win the so called hearts and minds of the people, you need something else like the song. So there's the ASEAN anthem? So my question to you is, is it harder to write the lyrics of the anthem or the words of the Charter?

Minister: (laughter) I'll leave it to those who are more competent in this area. I mean it should be fun. It should be something that people look forward to like the Eurovision song contest. We need to create similar cultural events in Southeast Asia that all of us can look forward to and enjoy.

Q: Following up on that, do we have a parade or some kind of occasion for ASEAN Day?

Minister: August the 8th! That's ASEAN Day which all countries have pledged to celebrate. So this year, we had the big event which PM officiated. Then at Chinggay we had all the ASEAN ambassadors to mount one of the floats.

Q: It's not a holiday right? It's best to declare it a public holiday.

Minister: (laughter) This is not an agenda item.

Q: Can I come back to the Charter?

Minister: Yes please.

Q: The principle of consensus and consultation is enshrined in it. Some people say that it holds ASEAN back from moving forward.

Minister: No, not necessarily. We can by consensus agree that for certain decisions we can go with the majority or for certain other decisions, a sub-group of countries, can proceed first and that was the basis of the ASEAN minus X principle which is now enshrined in the Charter. That is, if by common agreement, a smaller group of countries want to move on first, provided they leave the door open for the rest of us to join later, they can carry on. But it is important for the rules of non-consensual action, of decision-making, should be settled by consensus, that we must together agree that for certain situations, we can go ahead with a less than unanimous decision. So this is now enabled in the Charter.

Q: Is the one year ratification period a bit too long?

Minister: No, for some countries it is quite a protracted process. Yesterday when I had lunch with the Filipino ambassador, she said even one year might be a rush for the Filipino congress. I am not familiar with the internal procedures but there are steps that they have got to take. What I'm hoping is that once we have set that up as a target, we try to meet that target. It's not a problem for Singapore but it could be problem for some countries.

Q: Under the Charter, the ASEAN Summit will be held twice a year instead of once a year. Any reason for the change and will other dialogue partners be involved as well?

Minister: No, the second meeting, we've agreed among the Foreign Ministers, should be in retreat mode and only be a meeting among ourselves. It can be for half a day or a day, the leaders fly in, settle important issues so their ministers and officials can get on with their work. The problem now is sometimes when we can't agree, we spawn more study groups and more committees and the result is a waste of time and resources, when what we may need most is a decision. Yes, no, how to compromise. And for certain kinds of decisions, we need leaders to take them. So when we say twice a year, we will ensure that we won't have to wait a full year for the decisions to be taken. In the case of Europe, the leaders meet four times a year. Well, I think that's quite a lot of material. Thank you very much for coming. So watch this space!

[Minister gives a sound bite after the interview]

Minister: You see in '67, the Vietnam War at its height. '68 was the Tet offensive. '77: Cambodia had gone to the Khmer Rouge. Vietnamese divisions threatening to cross the Mekong '87: The Berlin wall had not yet come down. Vietnam had not yet withdrawn from across the Mekong but was clearly stuck. '97: financial crisis for an already united ASEAN. So now we're in 2007. What will happen in 2017?

By 2017, we know that China and India will be the major powers. By 2027, they will be very big powers. Where are we at that point in time? If we play it right, we'll be tethered to both of them. They rise, we rise with them. We are where they meet, we benefit from both and we help to maintain the peace in Asia. So it's quite significant. You can never say "If we didn't have this, if we didn't have an ASEAN, where will we be?" But each and every one of the ten countries has come to the conclusion that each of us is better off. Our survival chances are higher if we have ASEAN, than if we don't have ASEAN And it is this which is really what is galvanising us. You see, countries do not act out of love, or out of goodwill alone. Countries are impelled by fears, by ambitions. Often more by fear than by ambition and it is a fear of being small and vulnerable that is impelling us all to come here. That's the reason for the political will driving all of us forward.

Q: You've got to watch this space. Thank you very much.

Minister: Thank you!