Transcript of interview with Ambassador Tommy Koh by Channel News Asia

CNA: Prof Koh maybe you can start us off by telling us, the Charter has been drafted right now and all it needs is waiting to be signed at the ASEAN Summit?

Amb Koh: That's right.

CNA: What kind of significance does it have once it's signed?

Amb Koh: The Charter on paper is, I think, a very good framework. Whether or not it will remain only a great document on paper or come alive depends on the political will of the ten member states, but I'm reasonably optimistic that the Charter will be signed and ratified by all ten and when it comes into force, it has the potential to transform ASEAN from a loose grouping of countries into a more cohesive, more effective and a more rules-based organization.

CNA: I know that you mentioned that you're very optimistic that the Charter will be signed, but there are also naysayers on the ground indicating that there may be problems in terms of getting all the members to sign and there may be stalling involved here. What are your thoughts?

Amb Koh: I think that you must discount some of my natural optimism but I'm a natural born optimist. I'm reasonably confident that all ten countries will sign the Charter on the 21st of November. I think they will try to ratify it as soon as possible within the dynamics of their domestic ratification process. In some countries it is more complicated than in others. In some countries it can be ratified by the Cabinet, in other countries it has to be ratified by Parliament and when it's subject to ratification by Parliament, then it's subject to all the competing pressures of domestic politics; but I think the ASEAN Charter is popular in all ten members states and I do not foresee any serious lobbying from any group hostile to the Charter. So I'm hopeful that by the ASEAN Summit in 2008 in Bangkok, that it will come into force.

CNA: So you're saying that by 2008, it will come into force?

Amb Koh: A year from signature.

CNA: You said that the ASEAN Charter is popular in all ten member countries. Why do you say that?

Amb Koh: Yes, because after 40 years we've realised that in spite of our many successes, that there were some shortcomings; that for example, there's an institutional deficit, that our institutions are not strong enough, that we've tended to do things through informal arrangements, networking and relationships, so there's a deficit of institutions. Second, that there is also insufficient reliance on rules to accomplish our collective ends. Third, the most important shortcoming is that we have not taken out own agreements and commitments seriously enough. I think that the current Secretary-General Ong Keng Yong and his two immediate predecessors Rod Severino and Ajit Singh, have all three said that from their study, only about 30% of ASEAN's agreements have been implemented, and I think this is, frankly, not an acceptable record. So one of the things that the Charter could do is to create a system which compels us to take our commitments and agreements more seriously. And how do we do that? We do that because we will have a procedure for the Secretary-General to monitor compliance. We will have a system of dispute settlement in the Charter.

CNA: So based on all these benefits, so to speak, you think that it will lead to a more cohesive, a stronger ASEAN as a grouping?

Amb Koh: Yes. I think that it has the potential to enable ASEAN to, in a sense reinvent itself at 40 and make itself a more dynamic, more cohesive, more united and more rules-based organization.

CNA: Does the Charter have any sort of arrangement where if countries do not conform or do not apply the Charter, that they would be taken to task?

Amb Koh: "Taken to task" is not a good way of putting it but if we take our obligations seriously, then obviously there must be a way in which you can enforce obligations. So the first step is to monitor compliance and this very important responsibility has been given, under the Charter, to the Secretary-General. Then also we have a whole chapter of the Charter devoted to dispute settlement, beginning with the consultations, negotiations and the use of the good offices of the Sec-Gen or the Chair, and if that doesn't resolve the dispute, then it could go on to a dispute settlement mechanism.

CNA: What were some of the difficulties in putting together this Charter?

Amb Koh: You want all the juicy details?

CNA: Of course!

Amb Koh: Actually, since I've done a lot of negotiation, it has not been the most difficult negotiation, although it has also been filled with some drama. It has been filled with ups and downs. It has been filled with moments of great joy and some moments of pain, which is natural. For example, we had some disagreement over whether or not to set up an ASEAN Human Rights Body, so that was a major disagreement; then the secondary question is if we can agree to set up such a body, on what terms would it operate. Those were some very contentious issues. That's one example.

CNA: What about on the flip side then? What was the most momentous, so to speak, in putting it into the Charter?

Amb Koh: Actually we were very fortunate because the High Level Task Force was being supervised by our Foreign Ministers and on three occasions when we couldn't agree among ourselves, we had recourse to our ministers. So we met them on three occasions - the first time in Siem Reap, Cambodia, then Manila, the Philippines and the third time, we went all the way to New York to meet them and to request for guidance and instructions. So the Human Rights issue was actually resolved not by us but by our Foreign Ministers in Manila.

CNA: The Charter will be signed in Singapore.

Amb Koh: Yes.

CNA: And Singapore also takes on the chairmanship for ASEAN on its 40th Anniversary.

Amb Koh: Yes.

CNA: Can you tell us how this will reflect on Singapore's reputation if the Charter is signed successfully here at the Summit held here in Singapore?

Amb Koh: Well this is an important year for ASEAN and it's by luck of the alphabetical order that we become Chairman succeeding the Philippines. We will try to do a good job during the 12 months when we chair not just the Summit but the Foreign Ministers' meeting and other meetings. We look forward very much to hosting this historic Summit.

CNA: But with the Charter being signed here...

Amb Koh: The Charter will be a major deliverable but I should not forget to mention also that another important deliverable could be the Economic Blueprint, which the Economic Ministers would put forward to the Leaders. If the blueprint were adopted and implemented, it could by 2015, integrate our ten economies into one and make ASEAN a single market and production base. I think this would be really important because it would make ASEAN compete much more successfully than we can as ten independent economies with other giants like India and China.

CNA: So the hope is for those few documents to be ready at this particular Summit this year?

Amb Koh: Yes.

CNA: Do you think it is a little bit too optimistic to see the fact that a Charter like this signed would then bring the grouping together which has had many problems before in terms of disagreements, in terms of non-interference. Do we expect too much out of his Charter, so to speak?

Amb Koh: I've actually followed the journey from the time of its birth in 1967 and it has been to me, a very positive journey. If you harken back to the year '67, the region was in turmoil. We were very concerned that the flames of war in Vietnam would spread beyond the border and engulf the whole region. The five founding members, apart from Thailand, were ruled by different colonial powers and hardly knew one another. It was an act of faith that brought our founding fathers together in Bangkok on the 8th of August, 1967. When you look back, in 40 years, we have accomplished a lot. People often complain that we meet too often. I think at last count, maybe we had 700 ASEAN meetings a year, but do they serve any purpose? I think they do. You know, it is through this frequent meeting of different officials at different levels in the public sector, private sector, civil society, think tanks and so on, that we have created this high comfort level that we have with one another. We have also evolved a unique ASEAN way of solving problems, of talking as a family, of developing a habit of what I call "mutual accommodation in the search of consensus". And I think that maybe we have not yet reached the same stage as the Europeans have in their journey, where many young Europeans feel that they are Europeans. But I'm optimistic that, maybe in another ten years, that many young people in ASEAN would not only feel that they are Indonesians or Malaysians or Singaporeans, but they are also citizens of ASEAN.

CNA: And you don't feel that we are putting a bit too much weight on this Charter?

Amb Koh: It's not just a Charter. The Charter is a framework and within this framework, many activities take place; but it is important to have this framework, because as I said, it fills certain lacuna that exist, in terms of institutions, of making our decision-making process more rational, of streamlining the ASEAN structure of organization.

CNA: Going forward then, final question Prof Koh, is what can we expect of ASEAN after the Charter is signed, after the blueprint for economic integration is achieved?

Amb Koh: Well, this year is 2007, so maybe if I live long enough and you interview me again in ten years time in 2017, maybe we will see a different ASEAN.

CNA: Thank you Prof Koh.

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