Transcript of Minister for Foreign Affairs Dr Vivian Balakrishnan's Live Interview with President of the Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste José Ramos-Horta on RTTL's President Horta Show, 25 July 2023

President José Ramos-Horta: Today’s special guest of the President Horta Show for those of you in Timor-Leste and throughout the world — in Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, China, Portugal, the UK, Northern Ireland, Brazil — the many Timorese, thousands of them, some studying and some earning a living around the world. Today we have a special guest, the Foreign Minister of Singapore, who has been kind enough to spend a few days with us to better understand the reality and needs of our country and our people, and to continue the great relationship we have developed with Singapore since 1999. In 1999, Singapore participated in the International Force East Timor (INTERFET) security mission to securitise, to pacify the situation in Timor-Leste. Ever since, Singapore has stayed with us. 800 Timorese officials have benefitted from a capacity-building programme in Singapore, and we have many other aspects of this multi-faceted relationship.

Today, we are going to hear from the Foreign Minister of Singapore. I start with a first question. Obviously, we have to start with a first question. What a silly thing for me to say. The first question for me to say is— you were a famous, successful eye surgeon, and you transitioned to be a foreign minister. Tell us about this. I know you have been through many portfolios and (there is) nothing extraordinary that a medical doctor becomes a politician, or whatever, there being many cases like that in the world. I do not want to make any comparisons, but even Che Guevara, who was a psychiatrist or medical doctor, became one of the most famous revolutionaries in the world. So firstly, on a personal note, how is a famous eye surgeon who would be operating in an operating room in a famous Singapore hospital sitting here in Timor-Leste as the Foreign Minister of Singapore?

Minister Vivian Balakrishnan: Before the personal journey, I should say the reason I am here is because Singapore and Singaporeans deeply admire the people of Timor-Leste. Let me explain this in all sincerity. The circumstances in which Timor-Leste achieved independence were far more difficult than what we went through in Singapore. We admire your bravery, your courage, your determination, and your grit against all odds for so many years to continue to believe that Timor-Leste should be independent, should be sovereign, and should be in a position to make your own decisions for the young children in the audience. I just want to say, I am here first to salute all of you with deep respect.

The second point I would make is that Singapore is smaller than Timor-Leste. We are twenty times smaller in land. We have a few more people than you, but the key lesson that we have learnt in our 58 years of independence for Singapore is that it starts with the people. Your people’s hearts, their minds, their health, their willingness to work— to work hard, to work together to remain united. What you see in Singapore is a very small island, a city state with no natural resources, unlike Timor-Leste. You have oil and gas. You used to have sandalwood. You have land, you have sunshine, you have beautiful oceans. Singapore has much less of that. I once asked my first Prime Minister Mr Lee Kuan Yew – we looked upon the city of Singapore and I said, “How does it make you feel?” His answer: “A hardworking and disciplined people built all this.” A simple answer – hardworking and disciplined people. To lead hardworking and disciplined people, you need leaders like you, and Prime Minister Xanana (Gusmão) who fought for independence. But more than that, also to have in your heart the welfare of the people. At this stage now, when I look at Timor-Leste, I can see that you are also bringing up a new generation of children, and you are also bringing up a new generation of leaders.

One of the most important challenges for the founding leaders like what you represent is the next generation of leaders, which then answers your first question. In Singapore, we have no professional politicians. Every minister from Singapore has done something else earlier in life. Whether it was an engineer or a surgeon, or a mathematician – my Prime Minister was a mathematician – an army officer, a civil servant; it does not matter where, but everyone has had a life. The onus is on the senior leaders to recruit the next generation. That was how I came in. In that sense it is not unusual that every minister from Singapore you meet has had a life before and had nothing to do with politics. But we have to learn the character spirit, and determination of the founding generation. I see a similar process happening here. Coming here, it is exciting to see all the young people, to see the hope and determination which the senior leaders have, and to see the younger generation of leaders. I am here and I am spending several days because I want to meet the people and the leaders of Timor-Leste.

President: The question is, as you stated, Singapore is smaller than Timor-Leste by several times.

Minister: 20 times.

President: And 20 times larger population.

Minister: Our population? Maybe about four times (larger).

President: Four times larger population. But with no oil, no gas, no gold. And yet, today, 40 years more or less after independence, you have achieved what is the envy and admiration of the whole world to be one of the best performing economies. What is the secret? What would be the shortcut for Timor-Leste to be like Singapore? What would be some words of wisdom on your part? You mentioned only two. Hardworking people and discipline. Some of us are hardworking, but most of us, not very disciplined. We are missing at least one. So please, advise us.

Minister: Every country is different; every people is different – your history is different. As I said, you have had a much more difficult history. It is like delivering a baby, but a very difficult birth. It is not fair to compare the circumstances which you are in now and the circumstances in Singapore. I mean that in all sincerity. This has been a very difficult baby to deliver. But the baby is born, and the baby is well, and you want to give hope. I do believe you need hardworking, disciplined people; you need healthy people. That is why the programme which you (President) shared with me yesterday on what you are doing to overcome malnutrition, to enhance the thinking power and brain power of the next generation—the children of Timor-Leste. I think that is so very critical. Because the future is in their minds, in their hands. We must make sure they can grow up well and strong and healthy. And then, education.

President: Building on that, can you elaborate on how to prevent (being) stunt(ed), how to rescue our children from (being) stunt(ed) and from extreme malnutrition?

Minister: Number one, look after the women. The health of the next generation begins even before the next conception in the womb. Nutrition, healthcare, and education for women. Number two, during pregnancy and even before birth, there should be at least one, two or maybe even three check-ups, before the baby is born. The purpose of those antenatal check-ups is so that you can identify which mother and which child needs assistance during delivery and immediately after delivery. Timor-Leste is a big country. You do not have enough doctors to deliver every baby. Midwives can do it, but you must try to identify beforehand who may need greater assistance. If you can do that, you can immediately rescue more babies. The infant mortality rate in Timor-Leste is still too high. After delivery, the most important item is breastmilk. In Singapore, we are very strict even on advertisements by formula milk companies that they cannot overstate their claims. They cannot make claims that are not backed up by medical science. It is important to understand that the first two years of a child’s life is when the brain is developing the fastest. For children from the ages of two to six (years old), before school starts – actually, in this modern digital economy, you cannot wait until the age of seven to start school. Basic literacy, language, mental stimulation needs to begin. In Singapore, we are now also paying particular attention to early childhood education.

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President: We resume the Horta show with our special guest, Dr Vivian, Foreign Minister of Singapore, who I would say probably from my recollection, (among) the foreign minister(s) who (have visited) us and stay(ed) the longest. He did not come (for) one afternoon and leave the next day; he did not come in the morning and leave by lunchtime. He invested the time to really understand, and it shows that Singapore cares about Timor-Leste and we are very touched and grateful.

Maybe moving on from breastfeeding and malnutrition to the future of the countries, where we move to the current situation and the next weeks, months and years to come. Obviously, we know education and health, (which) Minister has shared with us. Tell me – you know about leadership; Singapore has provided some of the greatest lessons of leadership. I personally have read a lot about the beginnings of Singapore. I have read countless books and (watched) videos on the late, great and respected Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew. What does it take for a country to create peace, stability and prosperity?

Minister: You need unity. Unity amongst the leaders, unity amongst the people.

President: Unity.

Minister: Otherwise, too much energy is spent fighting each other. President, I have met you several times in the earlier years, I have met Prime Minister Xanana (Gusmão) also maybe 15 years ago, and repeatedly since. I have also met the leaders from the previous government that just changed.

I think Timor-Leste is now at a historic moment when you can create that unity amongst the people and the leaders. This is a moment when you have started on the journey to become a member of ASEAN, this is a moment when you have settled your earlier territorial questions with Australia. I hope you will also settle the questions with Indonesia soon. I think this is a historic moment in which Timor-Leste can take off and achieve your full potential. Even for your economy, the decisions that you are going to make in the next five years will affect the next 50 years. What are you going to do with your oil and gas, and the downstream economy? What are you going to do with your land to feed your own people, because you have the capability and the land to be self-sufficient, and to export food. Food is going to become a very vital ingredient in the next few decades.

As the world moves into a digital economy, educating our young people in how to use these new tools, and being prepared for the new jobs that are emerging with artificial intelligence (AI), cloud computing, global supply chains, digital and efficient distribution of goods, ideas, capital and value. We have to urgently prepare the next generation for that kind of world. So many things need to be done now.

President: Thank you, Minister for these insights. Explain in simple, layman’s terms, what is Artificial Intelligence (AI)?

Minister: It means that machines can now see, hear, understand your words, translate, express, and summarise. It can do many things which human beings used to do, but it will not replace human beings. We will still need musicians, we will still need a band; but the way that music will be transmitted, who will listen to you and how you receive your payments for your talent – all that will change. There are new tools which we must learn to use, otherwise our old jobs will be devalued.

President: Minister, some concrete examples. Where and how is Singapore already using AI? 

Minister: Within my Ministry, we are using it to help summarise reports, to prepare drafts, to look for data, to look for trends, and to look for patterns. Sometime even (for) my speeches, I try to use (AI to) shorten them. It is still no replacement, because I do not think people really want to hear just a robot speaking. They want to hear you, but all of us, we can improve what we currently do by using intelligent tools. 

President: One question – you have, over the years, a country building 10,000 pieces of law and probably the ones from the 1950s and 1960s overlapping and contradicting. What can AI do with this?

Minister: It can quickly identify the patterns – which parts are contradictory, which parts need a political decision, which parts need to be updated. All of Singapore’s laws are available on the internet, easily searched. We know when the law was passed, when it was amended, we know why it was amended. When we look in future at new laws, how will this new law fit with the old laws?

Timor-Leste has a more complicated challenge than we have, because you have Portuguese law, and then during the period of occupation there was another layer of law. Now that you have restored your independence, your circumstances are far more complicated. But I think this process can be assisted with these new tools. When the Timorese officials come to Singapore, we will show them how we use the tools, they will learn, and they will bring it back and apply it in your own way.

Another example – because you use many languages – nowadays, the translation systems are quite good, and they have become much better in the last five years. Whether you want to write a poem in Tetum or Portuguese, or in English, it can help you as well. (AI can also help with) music, photographs, videos. Children will be the best (at using AI), because they will invent things that you and I cannot even imagine yet.

President: My questions in the remaining few minutes of our conversation: First, after a few days here, what are your impressions of this country, of our people and where we are? Second, what are some hard-hitting recommendations to us as government, leaders – a few you have already shared. Third, a message for our people in Timor-Leste and around the world.

Minister: After three days here, I am more hopeful in the future of Timor-Leste. Why am I more hopeful? I have met people, I have met the President, the Prime Minister, Ministers, officials, Timorese – some educated overseas, as smart and as qualified as anybody else. I now see a political leadership which I think is trying to unify the leaders and the people. I now see that you are thinking long-term, planning long-term strategies – but at the same time, it is not just highfalutin ideas but practical, real programmes. That is why I highlighted your programme for maternal and child health, and education. Even for your economic advantages, like oil and gas, and natural resources, you are looking at downstream, and therefore trying to create better jobs, higher paying jobs for your people. If Timor-Leste can do all this and do all this quickly, and then take advantage of ASEAN membership to have a larger market for your goods and services, to attract more investments in, and to have a more conducive legal system that will give certainty to foreign investors, I think the next few decades are going to be very exciting years for you.

I do not have any hard-hitting things because frankly, from what I have seen, I have been more impressed rather than critical. It is about getting your people united, disciplined, hardworking, working smart, and building the future. Your population has got more young people than any other Asian society. This is both a challenge and an opportunity. If you can equip all of them with education, good health and jobs, this place will flourish. But if young people do not have hope and opportunity, then there will be political challenges in the future. Which way this goes is in your hands, but we admire you, we respect you and we will help you with ASEAN.

President: We can help Singapore. How? One way: Singaporean should drink more Timor coffee. 

Minister: Oh yes, they will. I think all my team and the media have enjoyed your coffee tremendously. But you must export more, produce more, market more. 

President: Thank you so much, Minister Vivian. 

Minister: You are most welcome. This is the first time I have ever done a show like this with the President of the country that I am visiting. Thank you for the honour.

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Photo Credit: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Singapore