Second Minister for Foreign Affairs Dr Mohamad Maliki Osman's Interview with Berita Harian for #NoTapis Podcast, 17 October 2022.

The podcast episode, produced by Berita Harian's Shahida Sarhid and Nazri Hadi Saparin, was released on Spotify on 17 October 2022. An unofficial edited English translation of the transcript and the edited original transcript in Malay are reproduced below. 

Durian Diplomacy: A Personal Touch in Establishing Diplomatic Relationships 

Shahida Sarhid (BH): We meet again in another #NoTapis episode of Berita Harian podcast, with me, correspondent Shahida Sarhid. This morning, we are very lucky as we have a special guest with us. Joining us in the Berita Harian studio today is the Second Minister for Education and Foreign Affairs, Dr Mohammad Maliki Osman. How are you, Dr. Maliki?

Second Minister: Alhamdulilllah, Assalamualaikum, how are you Shahida? 

Shahida: I am well. With me too is my co-host, who is also my supervisor, assistant editor Mr Nazri Hadi. How are you?

Nazri Hadi Saparin (BH): I am well, thank you. Welcome, Dr Maliki.

Shahida: For those of us tuning in, Dr. Maliki has many portfolios, of all kinds of things. But today, he will discuss more about his portfolio, or capacity, in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, right Dr Maliki?

Second Minister: That's right. We know that many may not be concerned about the importance of our foreign policies, our relations with other countries, and the importance of dealing directly with our relations with other countries.

Shahida: That's right. Because sometimes, we feel like, "There's no need to emphasise it. There are many more issues, prices are going up, all kinds of things, we are busy with the children's school affairs, we need to prioritise that". But today we will talk a little about this. Before I start, Dr. Maliki, I want to share with our listeners. Once before COVID, I was invited to do an assignment, where I had to go to your house. You had a Hari Raya open house! And you don't play around! For those who don't know, if Dr. Maliki conducts an open house, it's very open and very big! Not only Dr. Maliki's house, the neighbours open their house too!

Second Minister: That’s true, that’s true.

Shahida: Because those who attend are not just the average person. All the cars there were huge, and grand. When I came, Puan Noor Aishah was there, and DPM Heng Swee Keat also came. And on that day I also saw, if I'm not mistaken, that there were some officials or ministers from Batam, if I'm not wrong, when I came.

Second Minister: From Batam, from Malaysia and also ambassadors from other countries who serve here. I adopt the concept of the Hari Raya open house like we have the Singapore open house. I invite all the ambassadors who work in Singapore to know how we celebrate Hari Raya. They see me and my neighbours working together, having a relationship which is close, so that they can help me, allow their house to be opened as well. Because my house is not very big, right? So if you want to hold an open house and invite the ambassadors, ministers from other countries, from Brunei also come, you need help from the neighbours. So the whole street– open house.

Shahida: Like a bazaar!

Second Minister: Like a bazaar!

Shahida: But it's very nice because for the first time, at least for me, I can see the closeness that Dr. Maliki gives to all the guests who come. And they are like your dignitaries, your ambassadors. But the closeness, the warmth that you have with him, you know, like embracing, laughing, all these we do not see. Because if it's for the media, when we receive a press statement, or some of your official visits, all the pictures are very official. Standing upright, they smile but remain upright. That is nothing like I saw that day. So perhaps Dr. Maliki can tell us, what goes on behind the scenes? Because people will always want to know what is happening behind the scenes. How does it work to foster these good relations with other countries, especially our neighbours?

Second Minister: Yes. This is the important thing, because we know that close relations need to be established with other countries, because we accept the fact - Singapore is a small country. We are small, we have to be open — open to all — because our economy is an open economy. To open our economy, we need to establish close relations with all countries in the Southeast Asian region and also in the world. And as a country, we can't choose our neighbours, right? You are born with your neighbour. When it comes to our own houses it's okay, we can choose our neighbour. We don't like our neighbours, we can move, right? As a nation, we cannot choose. So, you are born with it, you are born in that region, we were born, existed with this region, but the important thing is the peace and stability of the region. Just like our neighbours, living as neighbours, we should establish a close relationship with our neighbours. So you need to spend time. We have to establish relationships, take time to connect with them, visit, understand their hearts. And with this good relationship, we hope that if there are issues that need to be explained, the issues that need to be explained can be explained more maturely, without misunderstandings and so on. So relating to our neighbourly relations, what is important are political relations, people-to-people relations. We visit political members. 

I just spent nine days in Indonesia, attending the G20 meeting, and at the same time I visited the provinces in Indonesia. Because I know that Indonesia is a big country. The important thing is for them to understand what Singapore is, what Singapore's purpose is, and how we establish a stable situation in the region. Because a stable region will give confidence to investors to come to this region. This stable region gives confidence that we can continue to move forward together. Our principle in Singapore is a developed neighbour is good for Singapore. A successful neighbour is good for Singapore. So we, especially (in) our relationship, is to make sure that we continue to work with them from the aspects of economy and cooperation. This should be done at all times and for all, not just politicians. So (for) people-to-people ties, we encourage our youth to have relationships with their peers. From the government's point of view, all the ministries encourage that. At MOE (Ministry of Education) too, we encourage our ambassadors to establish relationships with their peers, so that these relationships can be forged at a young age. In due course, when they take over leadership, when they become leaders, not only political leaders but trade leaders, business leaders, the relationship is already close, they understand each other, and God willing, with that, progress in terms of relationships (which) will be able to be taken to a higher level.

Shahida: Speaking of this relationship Dr Maliki, we say that if you want to strengthen that relationship, usually, yes, apart from formal discussions and so on, that relationship can be forged maybe through food, or through culture, sports and so on - what do you remember most in your effort, about trying to establish a relationship, especially through food?

Second Minister: If I have guests, I have friends who come here from abroad, I try (to) bring them to my house if possible, have dinner at my house. I think with this, you take away the formality. You tell them that I am ready for you to come to my private space. If we do so, it shows them that we are ready to establish a closer, more personal relationship. 

Shahida: Yeah, very personal.

Second Minister: More personal. Sometimes we say, “Okay, personal eight-eye. My wife and I, your spouse and you. Just us four.” And then the staffers – sit outside (laughs) They arrange everything but sit outside.

Shahida: Do they get to eat too?

Second Minister: They do. We prepare it outside too. So we have an intimate conversation, and we get to know each other at a personal level.

Shahida: That is very good.

Second Minister: We try to do that, as far as possible. So if the minister from Brunei (or) Malaysia comes, I invite him to my house. If the situation does not permit, then we bring them to different localities in Singapore. I like to bring them to the Sultan Mosque area. Because that's really where a range of food is available, right? We have fusion food, we have Malay food, and so on. Then you see the whole spectrum. So I became a tour guide for a while. After eating, take the road, then talk about the history of Singapore, the history of the Malays and all those things. They are very fascinated by our closeness between races, our relationship between races. They are always marvelling at how it is that it can happen in Singapore, you know? 

We have many different programs at all the different levels. We have a program where we encourage, we bring officials from other countries, these are civil servants, senior civil servants from different countries. We call it the Singapore Cooperation Programme, where they are brought here to undergo courses. We help them in terms of the aspects they study. Through that, our officials will share their experiences with the people, with them and they will increase their understanding of aspects of Singaporean life. For example, one, I'll always remember this group of Africans came (to Singapore). We were having tea at Cricket Club. It's a rooftop cricket club, overseeing Padang. So I said, "What do you think of Singapore? What's the first thing that comes to your mind?" The first thing they asked me is, “How come we don't hear police sirens? We are in the middle of the city. Where we come from, the city is full of sirens.” I said, “What does that mean to you?” He said, “It shows that you are safe. You don't need police to be around, in order for the people to be in the city.” I said, "Yes, the sirens may not be heard, but it doesn't mean the police are not around. But it also means that we have a relatively good level of stability and security that people are comfortable. People can go around anywhere.” So, (foreign) ambassadors, when in Singapore, always tell me, Singapore is one of the best postings. Why? Because they feel safe, their children are safe here. My daughter can come back at 2am in the morning, I got no worries. When we meet them, it's usually what we explain to them, the principles behind Singapore, our growth, our development, our principles, our values, so they know us far better. And that allows them to also bring their businesses here. With the connections we make back-end, the behind-the-scenes story is long. You have to spend so much time with them, talking at the personal level.

Shahida: I forgot to ask you earlier, when you invite them over, what do you cook? 

Second Minister: My wife's specialty.

Shahida: Wow! She will cook on her own? Seriously?

Second Minister: That’s the essence of genuine sincerity, you know?

Shahida: That is what makes it touching, yes.

Second Minister: And then of course, part of it is the durian diplomacy. If it's durian season, we can eat, we take them to sit outside, where my little koi are swimming at the pond. So next to the koi pond, we can eat durian for those who love durians! For those who don't like durians, we try to figure out.  . Staffers need to find out, you know, they all have to check on background information. So in the background they say, what they like, what they dislike. So, we have to do all these in MFA. When it's their birthday, we get ready all the birthday cakes. So (that) you know all these things, and then we prepare. Prepare what interests them, and then we bring in. Because food is something that you got a lot of stories to tell – I'm fortunate I have a wonderful wife who has a depth of knowledge about many things. About Malay culture, she can rattle everything, she can tell everything, so there's this good synergy. But the most important thing is when we want to establish a relationship, we have to be very sincere — sincere with all of them. 

When I go to Indonesia, for example, we establish a relationship with the capital, meaning all the ministers at the Jakarta. But because Indonesia is very big, I establish my relationship with all the governors, the mayors, districts. I have to go down all the way, to Surabaya.

Shahida: Wow. That is a lot!

Second Minister: So, to Surabaya, to Medan. The last trip, I was in Bali, Lombok, Bogor, Belitung.

Shahida: Oh wow. But not for a holiday eh?

Second Minister: No! Not a holiday! A little bit is okay, to visit the beach, right? But even when we visit the beach, it’s to establish a relationship. It is more so to meet up with the mayors, meet up with the governors, understand their plans and development, and bring Singapore as close to the provinces as possible as well.

Hadi: Why is that important?

Second Minister: Because you see, when you look at Indonesia as a big country, (the) information that they get about Singapore may be limited to the capital, may be limited to what is seen in Jakarta only. When you go down to the ground, I realize that some of them don't know much about Singapore. That's why I meet the students, when I go there. I will always tell, every time I visit, I want to meet groups of undergraduates and I have engagements with them. Engagements with them to ask, more so, what do you know about Singapore? I want to know about their perception, so that we can first, clarify, (and) second, invite them to Singapore. All of them are very bright, and they're interested in knowing about Singapore, interested in having internships in Singapore, interested in knowing how Singapore develops, and we have good conversations and discussions. 

I think it's important for us to build relationships at the provincial level, because one day they can be at different parts of Indonesia. The more they know about Singapore, the better we are. The better we are, so that they appreciate the challenges that we face. Many of them think that, for example, Malay minority in Singapore, so how are Malays treated? They ask me all these questions, right? Very frank questions. So I tell them frankly, the concept of meritocracy, the concept of various principles of our societal makeup. And then they begin to see, that's how it is. Their perception is, you can't eat chewing gum. And building that relationship with all the provincial governments and governors is long term. Because sometimes, one day, they do go up and take positions in central government. So by the time they reach the central government, they know Singapore's thought process, Singapore's development. 

The third thing we do is so that we can do mutual potential for investments. Because Indonesia has this concept of autonomy. Each of the provinces have some level of autonomy, they are encouraged to develop economically. It's easier for our businesses to have direct links with the provincial governments, and also for them to have direct links with us. For example, we have concerns over food security today, right? So food security, we want to look at different sources of food. When we go, we see what the potential is – their farming, their farming products – then our businesses can invest there, so that we can secure our supplies. So my job at MFA is to open doors. I go there, meet the governors, meet the mayors, meet all the key people, find out what their offerings are, find out if they know Singapore enough, open up the door, then our business people will come in because our relationship has been established. If we need a G-to-G (government-to-government) relationship, if we need G-to-G agreements, we will look at it. We will formalise the G-to-G agreements, and then on the ground, they will then do the economic engagements.

Hadi: I want to follow-up on your comments about neighbours. It's important that we have a close relationship with our neighbours, close and deep. We always see from the media, there are many people, pictures that are published, very high-level discussions between ministers, between political office holders. But, I'm sure it's not that easy, we have a close relationship. A picture is one thing, but the discussion is behind the scenes. And again, earlier you said that Singapore is a small country, and our neighbours are all giants. So how do we navigate this relationship? Are these countries trying to impose themselves? Because we are a small country. If that's the case, how do we navigate?

Second Minister: If we look at all this, first, we have to make it clear what our principles are. Our principles are what we do is good for Singapore, is in Singapore's interests. We are very clear that what we express in terms of our policies, are policies that show the importance of Singapore as a responsible country as a member of the world. We're a responsible member of the international community. So that is the first one. Two, we stick to the principles of international law. We follow that very clearly. The third is that, in all our dealings, we follow the rule of law very strictly. Big countries know that. Big countries look at us as someone who has a clear and strong backbone. We will not back down (based) on influence. There are many different examples where there are those who want to influence us, but they know that we need to have very clear principles, very clear. 

For example, we are often asked what is Singapore's relationship with China, and Singapore's relationship with America? Two big countries, where do you stand? We are very clear. We tell China that the US has to be present in the region, for stability, because the US is a very important partner economically, in the region. So their presence here provides stability. We tell the US, China is also an important growing big power in the relationship. At the same time, we advise the US based on our understanding and relationship with China, we say this is how we need to deal and work with China. So at different points in time, we will tell different countries our perspectives. Even when we look at the Russian-Ukraine war - we were one of the first countries that came out very clearly about our position, condemning their actions.

Hadi: We will touch on the issue of Russia with Ukraine in a moment. Maybe you can talk about the context of our neighbours?

Second Minister: The context of our neighbours, yes, so both of them, our neighbours, they are big countries as you said, but we are interdependent. Although we are small, this does not mean that we do not have relevance to them. If you look at trade, if you look at economic relationships for example. Economic relations, Singapore is Malaysia's second largest trading partner. And Malaysia is Singapore's second largest trading partner. Singapore is Indonesia's largest investor, even though we are small. So, from an economic point of view, we know our relationship is important because we are so interdependent. If we don't have an equal relationship, then you will have some difficulties in the future. 

Secondly, we know that the relationship between us and our neighbours is not only economic, but also social. The background, from history, our people are all interconnected. We are all migrants. Even our Malay community here, many of us have got forefathers who come from both Malaysia and Indonesia. And we still have links. We still have relationships. And when the borders were closed during COVID, families were affected, right? And both of them know that. When we opened up the borders, they acknowledged the importance of Singapore. Because Singapore is a transhipment hub. The relationship between Singapore and both countries economically and socially is very important. We work together with them. We know that, for example, in tourism, right? We draw in 60 million transit passengers every year, pre-COVID. But these transit passengers, we want to send them to Indonesia, Malaysia, at the same time, because it is good for them, because they've a very thriving tourism industry. So that's why we start from the premise. We need to use the first premise, which is that the progress of our neighbours is good for Singapore. It is not a zero-sum game. It is a win-win, because, pre-COVID, we have a relationship where there's a direct (route), we call it 'Fly Ferry Concept', where those who come to Singapore, they go directly to Batam or Bintan through ferry, without having to go through Singapore's immigration. So they just – (go through) immigration, yes — but they just go through straight to the ferry and straight to Batam, or straight to Bintan. And we facilitated that. We facilitated that. So we want to try as much as possible to cooperate with our neighbours. So they know. But at the same time, sometimes the thoughts are a little different. There are disagreements here and there. But we are confident that with a deep relationship, even if there is a disagreement, we can explain it. I mean, this is really a relationship like husband and wife. Right? You have a deep relationship, but the marriage will continue to last.

Shahida: Even the tongue is bitten sometimes.

Second Minister: So, that’s how we manage our relationship with our big neighbours.

Hadi: Earlier you said about Indonesia, interesting how you engage with the governors all. How about Malaysia? Because Malaysia, the interesting thing is that, since the last few years, the political situation has been turbulent, right? How do we approach Malaysia, one? And secondly, from time to time there are comments, maybe not from the government - from their political figures who belittle Singapore, belittle the Malay community, for example. How do we want to... sometimes we get angry eh? It's like... you said something to attack certain figures. How does our government handle that kind of...

Second Minister: We always try to rise above the rhetoric. If we follow the rhetoric coming out of other countries, we are just feeding into the politics of media, politics of rhetoric, right? In Singapore, we have a perspective, we rise above, we look at the larger picture that we need to address. What are the more important issues? If they say, maybe Malaysia's issue of water comes up. We know it's always been an issue but we go back to the basic principles. What was the past agreement? Make sure Singaporeans understand that Singapore has a position first. What is important is that Singaporeans must understand. We always say, foreign policy begins at home. This means that Singaporeans need to understand what Singapore's position on issues related to our relations with our neighbours. So that's the first thing. 

Second thing is that, even with Malaysia, I am also in contact with the Chief Ministers in all the states in Malaysia - in Johor, in Malacca, in Pahang, in Kelantan, I am in contact with their politicians. They have a federal system. But even if there is a federal government, they have their own assembly in each state, there is their own chamber of commerce. They have their own politicians. And that's where it's important, because they have to understand too, what is Singapore? Because sometimes, because they are in the north, they don't get more in-depth information about the principles, about the policies of Singapore. So we — I visited them, enlightened them. That's why I always say, when I visit there, I will always meet the youngsters there. I will always meet the youth. Find opportunity to engage them in dialogue, so I can know if their thoughts are in line with what is happening in Singapore. Because sometimes they don't know— They don't know that we have MUIS (Majilis Ugama Islam Singapura, also known as the Islamic Religious Council of Singapore), which is a statutory board. They don't know that MUIS oversees all the mosques.

Shahida: True, true.

Second Minister: So they don't know all these. They don't know how we take care of the welfare of our Muslim community. They don't know what the function of (Yayasan) Mendaki (Council for the Development of Singapore Malay/Muslim Community) is, for example. When I explained all this, they were like, oh okay now I know. So now they come here. Whenever I go there I always send an official invite after that, come to Singapore, look at us, and then we explain to them all the different perspectives. What they see is a Singapore that they may not have expected, the second is the progress of Singapore, the third is to clear up the perception. Many of them still mistakenly believe that the Singaporean Malay community is a minority community which is marginalised. 

Shahida: Always.

Second Minister: So when I went there, they saw that I am Malay Minister in Singapore. Some may wonder, "Is it true or not"? Some came to say it in my face, "Are you sure?"

Shahida: But Dr. Maliki, when you go there, are you the one who wants to go or does the Ministry tell you to go to the provinces or states?

Second Minister: Actually, it is my own personal interest that I want to make sure, that as best our two immediate neighbours are concerned, we have a deep relationship. And because of that, I will look after all the provincial government level, both Indonesia and Malaysia. So I go to all the provinces in Indonesia, and all the states in Malaysia. And I establish a good relationship with the politicians. In Malaysia for example, because of leadership changes, one moment this person is my partner, the next moment he becomes the opposition. But we are still in contact on WhatsApp. We still exchange experiences, thoughts, views, right? So it's okay, because you'll never know when.

Hadi: That's my question actually. If for less stable countries, does it complicate the relationship we are trying to build with them?

Second Minister: I don't think it's complicated, but the important thing is because our policy is — we are friends to everyone in the first place.   Whoever is in government, we will work with you. If you are not in government, we will still work with you, because we will still establish that relationship. That's what's important in terms of relationships. Because you will never know when they will be in government. Even when they're not in government, in opposition, we establish a close relationship because we want to know their view, their thinking, so that when they become (part of the) government, we know what they are thinking, we know their perception. So we are not confused when they take over the leadership of the country and we already understand them, they know us, we know them, they know our perception, they know our principles. It's easier to proceed from there. No need to start from scratch again. So, even when we build relationships, when we go, also look at the second layer of leadership. We don't just build relationships with the top layer.

Shahida: Long term eh?

Second Minister: Long term. Very long term. Super long term. We look at the second layer, who are the potential. We start meeting them, engaging them, so that they know us. And even if they are no longer in government, there are city mayors, mayors in Indonesia who may fail in the election, I still keep in contact with them. When they come here, they contact me, and I still meet up with them. And they appreciate that. 

Shahida: Sincere.

Second Minister: Sincere. I tell you, for example, our neighbour, Brunei. I go to Brunei every year to celebrate Hari Raya. Sometimes the family here says, "If you are busy here for one day, you won't be able to meet, but there, it (the Hari Raya celebration) is five days."

Shahida: Oh wow.

Second Minister: We started out with a three-day visit in Brunei. I started in 2015-2016, because I entered MFA in 2015. I started with about 20 houses, right? We visited 20 houses.

Shahida: 20 houses!

Second Minister: Because these are all the ministers, and junior ministers, because at that time, I was considered a junior minister, MOS (Minister Of State). They also have changes in terms of cabinet reshuffle so when there is a cabinet reshuffle, there are new ministers. But old ministers stay in the system. So, when I visit next time, it can go up to 30 houses. I visit the 20 who are new, and the 10 who are no more ministers. The last one before COVID, it went up to 40 houses.

Shahida: Oh wow! Can faint!

Second Minister: So I do it in about four days.

Shahida: Wow, an average 10 houses.

Hadi: 10 houses, 1 day, there is no whistle? Any “time’s up”? 

Second Minister: Someone will take care of it. He winks a little, you get the message, so we tell our hosts, we got to go. But I tell you, next round, God willing, next year — because this year we still can't go — so next year, I've calculated, it's 50 houses.

Shahida: Masya Allah.

Hadi: What say you, rent a ballroom, bring everyone. 

Second Minister: No that’s different. That’s where the personal relationship is. You make every effort to go to every house and every house you spend time with them, get to know their family, get to know their children.

Hadi: This is your practice?

Second Minister: Practice. My own personal practice.

Shahida: Personal? Masya Allah.

Second Minister: Personal practice, with Brunei. Because we have a special relationship with Brunei and they fully appreciate that, because nobody has ever done that with them, and right down to Sultan. So when I first come, I will meet Sultan at the Istana, meet all his family, then the next thing is meet all the different ministers, former ministers, ex-ministers.

Shahida: Why do you do this extra work, Dr Maliki?

Second Minister: This is really what it means to build long-lasting trusting relationship. Sincerity. You are very sincere, and you have to be sincere with them. So that the relationship – (so that) they trust us — you see all these things are necessary, because when we go to the international fora, we need support from different countries. This is important because we need the support of other countries for Singapore's interests. I give some examples. One is that we are an international aviation hub. So, as an aviation hub, we need to play a role in the international arena. There is an organisation called ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation). And this organisation outlines the basic principles that are directly related to the aviation industry as a whole internationally. We have to be in there. So, (to be in) the Council, we have to be elected through elections. There is an election (once every three years)

Shahida: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Second Minister: There’s an election (once every three years), and you have to be elected to be in the Council. As an aviation hub, it is important for Singapore to enter and sit in the Council. This is an international Council. For us to be elected, we need a constituency. We have constituents from all countries in the world, which are members of this organisation. My role at MFA is to establish a close relationship with all the members, all the countries that are members of this organisation. So when election time comes, we get their support.

Shahida: That is important!

Second Minister: Right? So they understand why it is important for Singapore as an aviation hub in Southeast Asia to be a member of the Council. And we, with this relationship, God willing we can continue to  get their support, right? This is one example.

Shahida: An example.

Second Minister: One example, ICAO. IMO is another one. International Maritime Organisation. Because we are a maritime hub, and we need to be member of the Council.

Shahida: It is the same, there are elections too.

Second Minister: There are also elections. Every international organisation is headed by a council made up of those elected through elections by all members. So our role is that. If we are small, we cannot voice out, our voice cannot be heard.

Shahida: Drowned.

Second Minister: Our relationship is to ensure that the voices of small countries are heard and taken seriously. Another example is the way we bring (together) small countries. We set up this grouping - the Forum of Small States (FOSS) in the United Nations. Before, every small country, when they spoke up, might not be loud, (or) not heard. With FOSS, today we - I think with (108) small countries, together, so as one block, we will go to the UN (United Nations), and our voice is stronger. This is our way in Singapore. Our foreign policy is to establish close relations with what we call 'like-minded' countries, make connections and we bring our views to the international arena. This helps our progress. Helps, as I explained earlier, Singapore's interests, to ensure that Singapore's interests are safeguarded at the international level. MFA does all of this. So many people often see my Facebook and say, "Wow Dr Maliki, here and there, best! Back and forth, back and forth, like a holiday!"

Shahida: It is not, okay!

Second Minister: The amount of work that we do!

Shahida: That is what people don't see, Dr Maliki!

Second Minister: It’s not seen.

Shahida: Dr Maliki, earlier you explained how Singapore does not take sides, that we are friends with everybody. And among them is when we see the conflict or issue between Israel and Palestine. This may be an issue that is very sensitive to our community, to our people because it has religious elements and so on. How is Singapore's position in the conflict, in balancing between these two rather heavy issues?

Second Minister: Before I answer the question related to Singapore with Israel and Palestine, let's look at Singapore's relationship with the countries of the Middle East, where Israel and Palestine are located. We have good and close relations with countries in the Middle East, because we know from a historical point of view, many of the Muslim immigrants in Singapore come from the Middle East, from Hadhramaut in Yemen. They are the merchants who come here. This gives us the beginning of the relationship that we need to strengthen in the Middle East. In the Middle East, we have close relations with Saudi Arabia, with all the countries in the Gulf. Because they are an important region for Singapore, not only in terms of trade, but because they are Islamic countries, and we have a group of Singaporeans who are Muslims as well. So, what happens there is important to us.

Shahida: True.

Second Minister: So, what happens there in terms of religion and so on, is important for us. Many of our students also go there to gain knowledge. And that's why we need to continue to have a close relationship with them. In relation to our relationship with Israel and Palestine, this is a very sensitive issue because in Israel and Palestine, we know that Baitul Maqdis - Jerusalem is one of the most sensitive places because it has a history that is said to be related to the Abrahamic religions. And our concern for Jerusalem is that our Muslim community considers the Al-Aqsa Mosque to be sacred. And there is also the Jewish community who feel that it is their Holy Site. 

What we have to understand is that what is happening in Israel and in Palestine—sometimes what is triggered in Jerusalem for example — is seen as a religious battle. Actually, it is not a religious battle. It is a political battle between political groups in Israel, as well as in Palestine. 

In Palestine, it is said to be the Intra-Palestinian Conflict, there are political groups that conflict in terms of their thinking, in terms of how they see their relationship with Israel. Israel also has political disagreements between political groups. So, what is happening in Israel and Palestine, is often misunderstood, seen as a religious issue. It is not a religious issue but a political issue that must be resolved by both Israel and Palestine. 

What is Singapore's position? Singapore takes the position that peace and stability in the region can only be achieved through what is called a 'two-State solution' - a solution where both exist as independent countries. Palestine as a recognised state, Israel as a recognised state. There is political disagreement because there are political groups that do not want to consider or accept the existence of Israel and Palestine as countries that are given the right to exist next to each other. So that's the very first thing. 

The second is that we have also supported UN resolutions that condemn Israel when Israel does something that contradicts the principles of international law. So, first, there is international law and this international law must be obeyed. If something happens that contradicts international law, and the UN tables a resolution (against the act), we will support it. We will support and condemn what needs to be condemned. So what needs to be done today is to continue to help both countries understand what Singapore's principles are. 

We have close relations with Israel in terms of education, infrastructure, in terms of science and technology, because they have skills. We have a relationship with the Palestinian Authority (PA), we want to support and help their progress. Since 2016, the Prime Minister (Lee Hsien Loong) has visited there and we have increased our aid to the PA. We have an Enhanced Technical Assistance Package of $10 million that has been  allocated for the development of PA (through capacity-building). What have we done for them? We help improve the level of abilities of their officers. Today, more than 600 PA officials have been trained by Singapore to aid their development. We have brought some scholarship holders from Palestine to come to Singapore. These are postgraduate students, and they are also officials in PA. They come here, attend our post-graduate courses, and often return to take higher positions. Our relationship with the Palestinian Authority is to help improve their abilities through technical education, technical training, and we hope this will help them to improve their abilities. From that, our relationship with both Israel and Palestine is one that is balanced. What is important is that the long-term solution is only in the hands of the Palestinian people, the Israeli people. But we see the development. Today we see the Israeli Prime Minister and Foreign Minister, Yair Lapid, saying that he also agrees that the two-State solution is a good solution for both parties. I think this is a good step, which I hope can be carried forward, and God willing one day we will see a resolution that sees both sides live as neighbours, which is good not only their residents but the region.

Hadi: So, we also have several (upcoming) visits, right, What is the purpose of these visits, mainly, and how do we express our hope to the rulers of both Israel and Palestine?

Second Minister: I think these visits show that we continue to be concerned about the development in these regions. This is because, it is important for us to have, first, a domestic audience, because our Muslim Malay community continues to be concerned about what is happening in Palestine and Israel. They want to understand what is Singapore's position, what is Singapore government's policy towards Palestine, towards Israel. They know that we are closely connected with Israel, and want to know that we are also concerned about developments in Palestine. So I go to the West Bank maybe every few years, see their development, see what we have helped them with, whether it works or not, see what other help they need, what kind of support that they need. Our residents, the Muslim Malay community in Singapore know that we are concerned about the development of the people in Palestine. Because we know that as a small country, this is important. We used to be a small country, we were beneficiaries, we got help from big countries. We know how important support from countries is for their development. 

Second, we see how we can improve our relationship with these countries, or these parties. So when I go there, I will launch Singapore's Representative Office in Ramallah. Today we do not have a representative office there, and with - we have already made that announcement, that we will create a representative office, and when I get there, I will officiate the opening of this representative office. What is the role of this representative office? This is an improvement in terms of our relationship with the Palestinian side. Because with this representative office, this means that our relationship will be more, not only deep, but more efficient, because what Palestine needs can be directly channelled through this representative office. And this representative office will be supported by MFA so that we continue to have a close relationship, a deep relationship with the Palestinians and are able to channel support with more efficiency, faster. That's our goal. And every time I go there, I make an assessment, recognize the development of what we can do to continue supporting them.

Hadi: How do you assess our society’s acceptance of our country's relationship with - in terms of the context of the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and also because we do not take sides. As Dr. Maliki said earlier,we have supported UN resolution that condemns Israel, but we are also one of the countries that abstain from recognizing or the position of Palestine in the UN. So how can we help our society to understand this issue more deeply, in Dr Maliki's assessment?

Second Minister: I think what I find, our Malay Muslim community in Singapore (should) understand that the context of what is happening in Israel and in Palestine is something very complex. It's not an easy one. Sometimes we see in the media what is happening, and they feel, "Eh, another fight," bombings, and so on. They can see this is a complex one. But what they are less sure of is what actually happened, I think. For example if we look at the media news of the bombing that happened in Israel to Palestine and so on. In Palestine, there are two groups –  the ruling group, and there is another group Hamas that has different principles They (Hamas) have a view where their relationship is more aggressive, their stance is more aggressive, and sometimes the bombing that is done, is done by them. But our society does not understand what is the cause of the conflict. They think, "Oh, rowdy again. Oh, war again.” So I hope that the important thing is that we help them to understand that what is happening in Palestine, this is because of disagreements or a different approach This is what we call intra-Palestinian conflict, disagreement, and we don't understand, we think Palestine is one party which is the same. So because of that, we need to continue to help them understand so that they know this should be resolved by the Palestinian side themselves. 

Similarly with Israel. As I mentioned earlier, the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Yair Lapid already said that the two-State solution is good for them, but there were leaders before who did not recognise this position as a position that could bring peace to the region. So, there are two different layers. One, they know that this issue is a complex issue, but in a deeper sense, I think our society still does not understand. And they have such sentimental feelings towards the people of Palestine. We understand, right, they are the people of Palestine, they feel because, as Muslims, we should give them support. I think, giving support is good, but if possible, don't get involved in terms of political disputes that happen there. That's why, Rahmatan Lil Alamin for example, helps our community to play a role in developing Palestine, together with MFA, helps develop Palestine from aspects of development that we can help, but we don't involve or interfere in terms of their political aspects. This is the main principle of Singapore - we do not want to interfere in the political arena of any country, because we do not want any country to enter or interfere in our domestic politics.

Shahida: Hmm, that’s important.

Second Minister: So, we must walk the talk. If we feel that we do not want other countries to interfere in our politics, we have to accept the fact that we cannot interfere in the politics of other countries. What we can do is help support but we have to leave the domestic politics to the respective countries, but we follow what is set in the UN because we are members of the UN, and the UN looks at aspects of international law, and make their decisions accordingly.

Shahida: Okay. And speaking of the uncertainty that Dr. Maliki touched on about the conflict between Israel and PA, and I think it's not just in that area. Prime Minister Mr. Lee and also our Foreign Affairs Minister Dr. Vivian Balakrishnan have also stated before that our world may now have entered a rather dangerous phase, because there is a lot of uncertainty that will happen. But why is it very important for our society to understand what is happening out there?

Second Minister: Because one, we are small. As a small country, our existence is directly related to what happens in the countries outside. We cannot live as a frog under a coconut shell because we are too small. Our economy depends on our trade with foreign countries. Our trade is 3 times our GDP, meaning that what we get as resources to develop Singapore is directly related to our relationship in terms of trade with other countries. If we didn't trade with other countries, we wouldn't be as advanced as we are today. Because we only have 5 million people. 3 out of 5 million Singaporeans. If we don't communicate, we don't trade, we don't have anything we produce, we don't have production, we don't have vegetables, we don't have anything. So, we need to buy things. We need to import. 90% of our food intake comes from overseas. 90. And because we are a small country, we are price-takers. We cannot say, "Oh I only buy this at this price."

Shahida: Cannot determine prices, is it?

Second Minister: (We) can't set a price. They can have other people they can sell to. So, the second is, because of the uncertainty that happens in other countries, what happens will affect us. For example, Russia-Ukraine crisis. Russia is one of the important gas producers. Ukrainian grain producers. Grain is a produce needed for livestock. So, direct link is agriculture. Because of such a situation, many grain products that are usually produced in Ukraine, could not be produced because of the war going on there. Immediately, the food prices keep going up, right? So, what happens outside will affect Singapore directly, not only indirectly. So, what should we do? First, we should, as I said earlier, establish relations with other countries so that they can know that if anything happens, do not cut or limit their production to Singapore. So, for example, it happens from the context of COVID-19, chicken from Malaysia. (For) many countries, they have to look at their own domestic politics. Each country looks at their domestic politics. As a politician, when I started politics, one of the principles I was told was, all politics is domestic. All politics is local. As politicians in other countries, they prioritise their domestic politics. So if anything happens, they have to look at their domestic (politics. They don’t think about outsiders. So, similar to what happened recently. They look at domestic politics - I don't have enough chicken, I don't have enough, I will protect so that my supporters don't get angry. They have the right to do that. All countries have the right to do that. We import 90% of our needs from other countries, if everyone closes their doors, what will happen to us?

Shahida: We are done, we cannot eat.

Second Minister: We’re done for. Yes, so we cannot be held ransom. We cannot reach that point where we cannot, there is no chance. So what do we do? First, we establish close relations with other countries, so we have MOUs (Memorandums of Understanding), we have an agreement. Before you cut, let’s talk first, let’s try to understand your needs, our opportunities, whether we can continue even if not a 100% cut, we cut it 50%, and we then expand, what is called diversification of our sources. We open various sources. Today, we import chicken from Brazil, from Mexico, we import from all different places. If something happens in Latin America, we still have sources from Europe. If something happens in Europe, we still have resources in Africa. If something happens in Africa, we have resources in the Middle East. So, we are looking for resources all over the country to ensure that our existence will continue to be guaranteed and inflation will continue to be under control. Today, our inflation is so high, because it's beyond us. Everybody is affected. COVID-19 affects everybody. But if possible, with different sources, the supply will remain. It's economics. Pricing, price is related to demand and supply. If supply goes down, demand is still high, prices are still high. We want to make sure that we have a continuous supply. Demand will not increase, right? Demand is the same, it may increase a little, but we will be able to control the price so that inflation does not continue to increase. PM said that what happened in Ukraine,  was a function of the relationship between the US and China and  directly related to what happened with the US and China. Tariffs, right? US increased tariffs, tariffs are taxes on Chinese goods. If taxes are high, Chinese goods are expensive. We will also be affected. So what happens between big countries, between all over the region affects us too. So we need to understand this and understand what we should do. And Singaporeans need to do this too, Singaporeans see what we have to do, don't be quick to get angry, the government will help us in terms of increasing prices, cost of living and so on. But we also have to play our role as ambassadors. We often say, every Singaporean is an ambassador for Singapore. You are ambassadors for your own country. So if they are abroad, if they hear ridicule or criticism of Singapore's policies, I hope they don't criticise either, but they defend Singapore's policies. Foreign policy begins at home. We should raise the awareness, raise the understanding, of every Singaporean, their role as Singaporeans. So if they go out of the country, they interact with their trading partners, or they stay there, we hope they become ambassadors for Singapore, promote Singapore’s interests, promote Singapore’s needs.

Hadi: Last question before we wrap up, Dr Maliki, about what is the connection between a more turbulent world, a more dangerous world, and asking Singaporeans to unite. We, as a small country, cannot affect, influence what happens in the world, right? In fact, we have discussed the Russia and Ukraine situation, but what does this have to do with us being united in the face of these geopolitical threats?

Second Minister: I think the important thing is that Singaporeans understand the aspects of Singapore's existence. First, is that we must, as a nation, unite to continue to protect and defend our independence and our sovereignty. We are an independent and sovereign country, with territorial integrity, this is our right. That's why we need the ability to defend ourselves. We need a strong armed force, which is ready to defend Singapore. Second is that we have to understand, as a small country with an open policy, we have to see the relevance of Singapore to the outside world. As a small country, we were once called 'Little Red Dot' which may not exist or not be seen by any country. So the important thing is that the relevance of Singapore ensures that every country out there knows about Singapore, knows about the importance of Singapore to them as well. This is the issue of Singapore's relevance. The relevance of Singapore is directly related to the role of Singaporeans. United we stand, we are divided we fall. And, what is important is domestic stability. Investors to Singapore are one way. We need investment to improve and fuel our economy, because we are a small country as I said earlier. 

The second aspect is Singapore's existence as a small country, and Singapore's role in the outside world. Because of that, we must ensure that Singaporeans understand the relevance of Singapore to the outside world. We used to be called 'Little Red Dot', as if we were not important in the outside world. Many countries may not know Singapore, if we are not relevant to them. So the important thing is that we make sure that we are relevant to all the countries out there, small countries and big countries as well. Especially big countries, because big countries have friends as big as them. So when they see a small country like Singapore, they may think this is not important. So if we are relevant to their development, their development, we will play an important role in the existence of those countries as well. Because of that, we need a united Singapore. As the saying goes, united we are strong, divided we fall. Unite to ensure that our domestic situation remains stable, permanent, secure. It is said to be secure and stable. We need investments to improve or expand our economy, fuel our economy, because we need to ensure that our young people have jobs, earn income that commensurate with their aspirations. But the investors will only invest in a stable country, which has no turmoil. Because if they see the country in turmoil with riots and so on, they think their investment will not be stable and will not increase. Nobody is going to come and invest. So that's important. So Singaporeans must unite in terms of race relations, in terms of inclusivity, in terms of us ensuring that each of us has rights in our country, or a place in our country. 

We must also ensure that Singaporeans are united in terms of our relationship with other countries, which I said earlier, the role of Singaporeans as ambassadors for Singapore, defending Singapore when they are abroad. Sometimes we hear criticisms from the people of other countries. When we have relations that may conflict with other countries, and those countries try to influence Singaporeans. For example, when we have disagreements with China, some say our Singaporeans may try to be influenced by elements that want to divide Singapore. Here is the importance of Singapore, the importance of Singaporeans uniting to understand their role, understand Singapore's policies, why the Singaporean government holds fast to those policies. And with this, they can defend Singapore's policy, defend Singapore's position. And when they fail, we will see cracks. They will see cracks, because these cracks will be magnified, and this will break Singapore. So this is a very important thing, I think, for Singaporeans to understand their role.

So to sum up our discussion today, I would like to thank #NoTapis Berita Harian, for giving me the opportunity to discuss an issue that is often not in the minds of Singaporeans. Singaporeans often think domestically, only domestically. Think about the importance of the situation out there. So the important thing is to understand that as a small country, we should continue to strengthen our relationship with other countries. First, with our neighbours, because relationships between neighbours are very important. It will ensure the stability of the region. And with the stability of this region, we can bring investors, not only in Singapore, but also see the relevance of Singapore in this stable region. Our relationship with our neighbours is very important because of our socio-economic ties. We have a close people-to-people relationship, between the people, and a close economic relationship, we need each other. Our relationship with other countries is also very important. And the openness of Singapore leads to the implication that there will be foreigners coming to Singapore. And we should also see the importance of their role in our country. Don't be too quick to isolate them from their development. These are all aspects of the government's policy in terms of our foreign policy that have a direct relationship with our development, our existence as a country like Singapore. And I hope Singaporeans understand, and can cooperate with the government, and can cooperate with each other to further strengthen our racial solidarity, our unity as a nation for our progress in the future.

Shahida: I think for those who tuned in to NoTapis, today I think, I now know about the somewhat complicated but important work that Dr. Maliki and also our Ministry has done in their effort to establish friendship, especially with our neighbours as well as the countries outside to strengthen Singapore's position to ensure that Singapore continues to be relevant in the eyes of the world. Thank you to Dr Maliki for being with us on #NoTapis today. Thanks also to Nazri Hadi for the very insightful questions to Dr Maliki.

Second Minister: Thank you to Hadi and Shahida for inviting me, and God willing, we hope that what we have discussed can be a takeaway for all the listeners and readers of Berita Harian, and Singaporeans in general.

Shahida: Many thanks, Dr Maliki.

Hadi: Thank you.

.   .   .   .   .   .

Diplomasi Durian: Sentuhan Peribadi Dalam Jalinan Hubungan Politik

Shahida Sarhid (BH): Ok, bertemu kita sekali lagi dalam satu lagi episod #NoTapis podcast Berita Harian bersama dengan saya koresponden Shahida Sarhid. Hari ini, pagi ini kita amat bertuah kerana kita terima kunjungan istimewa. Bersama kita di studio Berita Harian pada hari ini ialah Menteri Kedua Pendidikan merangkap Ehwal Luar Dr Mohamad Maliki Osman. Apa khabar Dr Maliki?

Second Minister: Alhamdulilllah, Assalamualaikum. Apa khabar Shahida?

Shahida: Khabar baik. Juga bersama saya yang menjadi co-host hari ini adalah supervisor saya, penolong kepada editor, Nazri Hadi. Apa khabar Encik Hadi?

Nazri Hadi Saparin (BH): Alhamdulillah baik, terima kasih. Selamat datang, Dr Maliki.

Shahida: Sebenarnya bagi mereka yang sedang mendengar podcast kita, Dr Maliki ada banyak portfolio, macam-macam. Tapi hari ini beliau akan bincangkan lebih lanjut tentang portfolio ataupun kapasitinya dalam kementerian ehwal luar, betul eh Dr Maliki?

Second Minister: Benar. Kita tahu ramai yang mungkin tidak prihatin tentang pentingnya dasar-dasar ehwal luar kita. Hubungan kita dengan negara-negara lain dan pentingnya untuk pembangunan Singapura yang berkaitan langsung dengan perhubungan kita dengan negara-negara lain.

Shahida: Betul, sebab ini kadang-kadang macam, benda yang kat luar ni, “Alah tak payahlah kita nak titik beratkan. Banyak lagi isu-isu. Harga naik, apa macam-macam lagi kita nak sibuk sekolah anak-anak nak kena pentingkan.” Tapi hari ini tetap kita akan berbincang sikit tentang hal ini. Sebelum saya nak mulakan, Dr Maliki, saya nak kongsi kepada para pendengar kita, ada satu kali itu sebelum COVID, saya telah diundang untuk buat assignment where I have to go to your house. You ada buat open house Hari Raya. Jangan main-main eh, bagi mereka yang tak tahu, kalau Dr Maliki buat open house, very the open and very the big. Bukan rumah Dr Maliki sahaja, jiran-jiran pun open their house juga eh?

Second Minister: That’s true, that’s true.

Shahida: Kerana yang datang bukan calang-calang. Semua yang kereta macam wow, yang hebat-hebat, yang waktu saya datang tu ada Puan Noor Aishah ada, waktu itu ada Encik Heng Swee Keat pun datang, dan pada hari itu juga saya ternampak kalau saya tak silap saya ada beberapa para pegawai atau menteri daripada Batam tak salah waktu saya datang.

Second Minister: Daripada Batam, daripada Malaysia dan juga duta-duta besar daripada negara-negara lain yang yang berkhidmat di sinilah. Di situ saya gunakan open house Hari Raya seperti kita punya open house Singapore. Di mana saya mengundang semua duta-duta besar yang bekerja di Singapura ini untuk mengenal bagaimana kita meraikan Hari Raya, bagaimana mereka melihat saya dan jiran-jiran saya bekerjasama, mempunyai hubungan yang erat, supaya mereka dapat membantu saya membenarkan rumah mereka juga dibukalah. Kerana rumah saya bukan besar sangat kan. Jadi nak buat rumah terbuka itu dengan undangan-undangan duta-duta besar, menteri-menteri daripada negara lain. Daripada Brunei juga datang. Perlulah bantuan jiran-jiran. Jadi the whole street open house.

Hadi: Macam baazar.

Second Minister: Macam baazar.

Shahida: But it's very nice because for the first time, at least for me, saya dapat lihat macam keakraban yang Dr Maliki berikan kepada tetamu yang datang. And they are, like you said, your dignitaries, duta-duta besar. But, the closeness, the warmness you ada dengan dia orang. Macam ada yang berpelukkan, lepas itu ketawa-ketawa, Ini semua kita tak nampaklah sebab kalau from media, kita kalau terima press statement ataupun some of your official visit, gambar dia semua very official. Diri tegak, senyum memang tetap senyum. Tak ada yang saya nampak pada hari itu. So kalau boleh Dr Maliki boleh beritahu kita what goes on behind the scenes. People will always want to know what is happening behind the scenes,  how does it work to foster these good relations with other countries, especially our neighbours.

Second Minister: So this is the important thing. Ini yang penting kerana kita tahu hubungan erat perlu dijalin dengan negara-negara lain. Kerana kita terima hakikat Singapura adalah negara yang kecil. Negara yang kecil. We are small, we have to be open. Terbuka kepada semua kerana ekonomi kita ialah ekonomi yang terbuka. Jadi untuk membuka ekonomi kita, kita perlu menjalin hubungan yang erat dengan semua negara di merantau Southeast Asia dan juga di dunia. Dan hidup sebagai sebuah negara kita tak boleh memilih jiran kita, sebenarnya you are born with a neighbour. Di rumah, okaylah kita boleh pilih neighbour. Kita tak suka neighbour, kita boleh pindah kan. Jadi sebagai sebuah negara kita tak boleh pilih. So you are born with, you are born in that region. Kita lahir wujud dengan rantau ini. Tapi yang penting ialah keamanan dan kestabilan rantau tersebut. Sama dengan jiran kita, hidup berjiran. Kita harus menjalin hubungan yang erat dengan jiran jiran So you need to spend time. Kita harus menjalin hubungan, meluangkan masa untuk berhubungan dengan mereka. Berkunjungan, memahami isi hati mereka dan dengan penjalinan hubungan yang baik ini kita harap jika ada terdapat isu-isu yang harus dihuraikan, isu yang harus dihuraikan dapat dihuraikan dengan lebih matang, tanpa perselisihan faham dan sebagainyalah. Jadi berkaitan langsung dengan hubungan dengan jiran-jiran kita. Yang penting ialah hubungan politik, hubungan people-to-people. Hubungan politik kita harus ahli-ahli politik kita berkunjungan. Saya baru menghabiskan 9 hari di Indonesia, menghadiri mesyuarat G20 dan juga dalam masa yang sama saya mengunjungi provinsi-provinsi di Indonesia. Kerana saya tahu bahawa Indonesia merupakan negara yang besar jadi yang penting ialah untuk mereka memahami apakah Singapura, apakah tujuan Singapura, dan bagaimana kita menjalin satu situasi yang stabil di rantau ini. Kerana rantau yang stabil akan memberi keyakinan kepada para investor kita untuk datang ke rantau ini. Rantau yang stabil memberi keyakinan bahawa kita boleh terus maju ke hadapan bersama. Dan prinsip kita di Singapura ialah jiran yang maju baik untuk Singapura. So a successful neighbour is good for Singapore. Jadi kita, khususnya hubungan kita ialah untuk memastikan bahawa kita terus bekerjasama dengan mereka. Jadi aspek-aspek ekonomi, aspek kerjasama. Dan ini harus dijalinkan pada setiap masa dan untuk semua. Bukan saja ahli politik. So people-to-people ties, kita menggalakkan para remaja kita untuk menjalin hubungan dengan rakan-rakan sebaya mereka. Dari segi dasar pemerintah semua ministry, semua kementerian menggalakkan tersebut. Di MOE juga kita menggalakkan para penduduk kita untuk menjalin hubungan dengan rakan-rakan sebaya mereka supaya hubungan tersebut dijalin pada usia muda so in due course, bila mereka take over leadership, bila mereka satu hari nanti menjadi pemimpin-pemimpin, misalnya pemimpin politik, pemimpin perdagangan, pemimpin bisnes, hubungan sudah erat, faham memahami antara satu sama lain, dan Insya Allah dengan itu kemajuan dari segi perhubungan akan dapat dibawa ke tahap lebih tinggi lagi.

Shahida: Cakap pasal hubungan ini Dr Maliki, kita cakap macam nak perkukuhkan hubungan itu, selalunya, selain daripada perbincangan secara formal dan sebagainya, hubungan itu juga boleh dijalin menerusi makanan, ataupun menerusi budaya, sukan dan sebagainya. Apa yang paling you ingat sekali dalam usaha menjalinkan hubungan ini terutama dalam makanan.

Second Minister: Kalau saya ada guest, saya ada rakan-rakan datang ke mari daripada luar negeri, pertama saya cubalah kalau boleh bawa mereka ke rumah saya. Makan malam di rumah saya kerana saya rasa ini, you take away that formality. You tell them that I bersedia untuk you datang ke my private space. 

Shahida: Yeah, very personal.

Second Minister: More personal. Kita cakap, “Okay, personal eight-eye. My wife and I, your spouse and you. Just us four.” And then the staffers – sit outside (ketawa). They arrange everything but sit outside.

Shahida: Dapat makan tak, Dr Maliki?

Second Minister: Dapat makan. Kita siapkan di luar juga. So we have an intimate conversation, and we get to know each other at a personal level.

Shahida: That is very good.

Second Minister: We try to do that, as far as possible. Banyak Menteri daripada Brunei, Indonesia, yang datang saya undang ke rumah saya. Tapi kalau misalnya kadang-kadang keadaan tidak mengizinkan, so then we bring them to different localities in Singapore. So I like to bring them to kawasan Masjid Sultan. That's where all the whole range of food is available. Kita ada fusion food, kita ada Malay food dan sebagainya. Then I will jadi tour guide sekejap. Dapat makan, bawa jalan. Then talk about history of Singapore. They are very fascinated by kita punya keakraban antara kaum, our hubungan antara kaum. They are always marvelling at how is it that it can happen in Singapore, you know? 

We have many different programs at all the different levels. Kita ada programme di mana kita membawa Para pegawai negara-negara lain, these are civil servants - senior civil servants from different countries. We call it the Singapore cooperation programme di mana mereka dibawa ke sini untuk menjalani kursus-kursus. Kita membantu mereka dari segi aspek-aspek yang mereka pelajari but through that our officials will share our experiences dengan dia orang dan mereka meningkatkan kefahaman mereka tentang aspek-aspek kehidupan Singapura. So misalnya, I always remember this group of Africans daripada Afrika datang ke kita. We were having tea, at cricket club. Rooftop of cricket club, overseeing Padang. So I said, “What have you thought of Singapore? What is the first thing that come to your mind?” The first thing they asked me, “How come we don't hear police sirens? We are in the middle of the city, where we come from the city is full of sirens.” So I said, “What does that mean to you?” Dia cakap, “It shows that you are safe. You don't need police to be around in order for the people to be in the city.” So I said, “Ya lah. The sirens may not be heard, but it doesn't mean the police is not around. But it does also mean we have a relatively good level of stability and security that people are comfortable. People can go around anywhere.” So duta-duta besar kita, kalau kat Singapore kan, selalu katakan pada saya, “Singapore is one of the best postings because they feel safe, their children are safe here. My daughter can come back 2 AM in the morning, I got no worries.” When we meet them, selalunya kita katakan kepada mereka the principles behind Singapore punya growth, our development, our principles, our values, and that allows them to also bring their businesses here. So dengan hubungan kita jalinkan back end, the behind the scenes story panjang. You have to spend so much time berbual, at the personal level...

Shahida: Tadi lupa nak tanya, you ajak dia orang datang rumah you masak apa?

Second Minister: Specialty my wife lah.

Shahida: Wow! Dia masak sendiri? Serious? Oh Masha Allah!

Second Minister: That’s the essence of genuine sincerity, you know?

Shahida: Itu yang buat tersentuh-sentuh, ya?

Second Minister: And then part of it is the durian diplomacy. Kalau musim durian, lepas makan, kita bawa dia orang sit outside where my little kois are swimming, ada sebelah koi pond tua kita makan durian. For those that love durians. For those that don't like durian we try to figure out... that's the value of staffer punya role. Staffer have to find out, dia orang kena buat background info. So at the background, they said, what are their likes and dislikes, kalau it's their birthday we get ready the birthday cake. So in MFA kita kena buat ini semua. Kita kena tahu all the background check, what interests them and then we will bring in... because food is something that you have a lot of stories to tell. And you know I'm fortunate, I have a wonderful wife who has a depth of knowledge for many things. So pasal Malay culture she can rattle everything she can tell everything. So there's a good synergy, but the most important thing is bila kita nak menjalin hubungan, we have to be very sincere. Sincere with all of them. So bila saya pergi ke Indonesia misalnya, we establish relationship dengan the capital. Meaning, all the ministers at the Jakarta. But because Indonesia is very big, I establish relationship with all the governors. The governors, the wali kota, the mayors, the kabupaten, so I have to go down all the way, to Surabaya.

Shahida: Wow. Banyak tu!

Second Minister: So, to Surabaya, to Medan. The last trip, I was in Bali, Lombok, Bogor, Belitung.

Shahida: Oh wow. Tapi bukan untuk holiday eh?

Second Minister: No lah! Tak boleh holiday! Sikit-sikit bolehlah tengok pantai kan tapi kita duduk pantai tu also to jalin hubungan. But it is more so to meet up with the mayors, meet up with the governors, understand their plans, their development and bring Singapore as close to the provinces as possible also.

Hadi: Why is that? Kenapa itu penting?

Second Minister: Kerana kita, when you look at Indonesia as a big country, information that they get about Singapore may be limited to capital. Apa yang dilihat di Jakarta sahaja. When you go down to the ground, I realise that some of them don't know much about Singapore. So I meet the students. Everytime I visit, I want to meet groups of undergraduates and I have engagements with them, engagements with them to ask more so, apa yang you know about Singapore, and what I want to know about their perception so that we can first, clarify and second invite them to Singapore. And all of them are very bright and they are interested in knowing Singapore. Interested in having internships in Singapore, in knowing how Singapore developed, and we have good conversations. and discussions.

I think it's important for us to also build relationship at the provincial level because one day they can be at different parts of Indonesia. The more they know about Singapore the better we are. The better we are so that they appreciate the challenges that we face. Many of them think that for example, Malay minority dekat Singapore, so how are Malays treated. They ask me all these questions. Very frank questions, so I frankly tell them the concept of meritocracy, the concept of various principles of our societal make up. And then they begin to see, oh ok that's how it is, so their perception is tak boleh makan chewing gum. So and building that relationship with all the provincial government and governors is long term. Sometimes one day they do go up and take positions in central government, by the time they reach central government, they know Singapura punya thought process, Singapura punya development.

The third thing we do that is so that we can do mutual potential for investment. Because Indonesia has this concern about economy. So each of the provinces have some level of autonomy so it's easier for our businesses to have direct links with the provincial government for them to do that and for them to also have direct links to the task. So misalnya kita punya concern over food security. Food security; we want to look at different sources of food. So bila kita pergi, kita lihat what is the potential. So bila kita pergi, kita lihat what is the potensial petanian mereka, produk-produk petanian mereka. And then our businesses can invest day there so that we can have, we can secure our supplies. So my job at MFA is to open doors. So I go there, I meet the governors with the mayors, meet all the key people, find out what their offerings are, find out if they know that Singapore enough, open up the door then our business people will come in. And because a relationship has been established, kalau kita perlu hubungan g2g, formalise the g2g agreements and then on the ground, they will then do the economic engagement.

Hadi: Saya nak follow up tentang soalan, komen Dr Maliki itu yang jiran. Pentingnya kita ada hubungan erat dengan jiran. Erat dan mendalam lah. Daripada... Kita selalu nampak from media, daripada orang ramai, the gambar-gambar yang kita siarkan, very high level discussions between ministers, between politcal office holders. Tapi saya pasti tidak semudah itu kita adakan hubungan yang erat lah. Gambar satu, perbincangan di balik tabir itu semua, kan? Lagi-lagi tadi you kata itu Singapura sebagai negara yang kecil dan jiran-jiran kita ini semua pula gergasi. So bagaimana itu kita menavigasikan hubungan ini dari segi adakah negara-negara ini cuba untuk impose themselves ke, kerana kita negara yang kecil. Kalau keadann seperti itu, bagaimana kita navigate?

Second Minister: Kalau we look at all this, first is kita kena make it clear what are our principles. Our principles is after yang kita lakukan is good for Singapore. It's in Singapore's interest and we are very clear, apa yang kita luahkan dari segi dasar-dasar kita, adalah dasar-dasar yang menunjukkan kepentingan Singapura sebagai sebuah negara yang bertanggungjawab sebagai ahli anggota dunia. So we are a responsible member of the international community. So that's the first one. Two, kita berpegang teguh pada prinsip-prinsip intenational law. Undang-undang antarabangsa. So we follow that very clearly. Ketiga ialah in all our dealings we follow rule of law very strictly. So big countries know that. Big countries look at us as someone who has clear and strong backbone. We will not back down on influence. So there are many different examples di mana adalah yang ingin mempengaruhi kita dari aspek-aspek our position tapi mereka tahu bahawa kita perlu mempunyai prinsip yang begitu clear, jelas sekali.

Kita sering ditanyakan sama ada apakah posisi kita di antara berkaitan langsung dengan hubungan Singapura dengan China dan Singapura dengan Amerika misalannya. 2 big countries, where do you stand? We are very clear. At some points we say we are here because of our interest in Singapore. We tell China that the US has to be present in the region for stability because the US is a very important partner economically in the region. So their presence here provides stability. We tell the US, China is also an important growing big power in the relationship. But at the same time we advise the US based on our understanding and relationship with China, we say this is how you need to deal and work with China. So at different points in time, we will tell different countries, our perspective. Even when we look at the Russia-Ukraine war. We were one of the first countries that come out very clearly about our position, condemning the actions.

Hadi: Kita akan sentuh tentang isu Russia dan Ukraine sebentar lagi. Mungkin boleh cakap dari segi konteks jiran kita. Bagaimana?

Second Minister: Dari konteks jiran kita, yes so both of them are jiran kita. Jiran kita, is the big countries as you said. But if you see, we are interdependent. Walaupun kita kecil ini tidak bermakna bahawa kita tidak mempunyai kerelevanan kepada mereka. If you look at economic relationships, for example. Economic relationships, Singapore is Malaysia's second largest trading partner. Eh, Malaysia is Singapore's second largest trading partner. Singapore is Indonesia's largest investor. Walaupun kita kecil. Dari segi ekonomi kita tahu hubungan kita penting kerana we are so interdependent way back since you all started. Tapi kalau kita tidak menjalin hubungan yang equal, yang setaraf, dan you will have some difficulties in the future.

Secondly is kita tahu bahawa hubungan antara kita dengan jiran-jiran kita bukan saja dari ekonomi, daripada segi sosial. Kerana latarbelakangnya from history, our people are interconnected. We are all migrants, right? Even our Malay community here, many of us have forefathers who come from both Malaysia and Indonesia. And we still have links, we still have a relationship. And when the borders were closed during COVID. Families were affected. Both of them know that while we open up the borders, they acknowledge the importance of Singapore borders. Because Singapore is the trans-shipment hub. The relationship between Singapore and both countries economically and socially is very important. We work together with them, we know that for example in tourism, we draw in sixty million transit passengers every year, pre-Covid. But these transit passengers, we want to send them to Indonesia, Malaysia at the same time. Because it is good for them. Because they have a very thriving tourism industry. That's why we start from the premise. Kita perlu gunakan pada premis yang pertama ialah kemajuan jiran-jiran kita baik untuk Singapura. It is not something that...it's not a zero-sum game. It is a win-win because even masa, there was one time pre-COVID kita ada hubungan dimana we call it a ‘Fly Ferry Concept’, di mana mereka yang datang ke Singapura mereka langsung ke Batam atau Bintan through ferry without having to go through Singapore immigration. Immigration yes, but they just go through straight to the ferry and straight to Batam or straight to Bintan. And we facilitate that. We facilitated that. We want to try as much as possible to kerjasama dengan jiran-jiran kita, so mereka tahulah. But at the same time, kadang-kadang pemikiran agak berbeza sikit. Ada perselisihan faham here and there but kerana hubungan yang telah dijalin secara mendalam we are confident that with the deep relationship walaupun ada perselisihan faham kita boleh menghuraikannya. This is really relationship with like husband and wife. You have deep relationship but the marriage will continue to last.

Shahida: Sedangkan lidah lagi tergigit.

Second Minister: That's how we manage kita punya relationship with our big neighbours.

Hadi: Tadi kata tentang Indonesia, Malaysia pula bagaimana? Because Malaysia ini, interesting ini, beberapa tahun yang lepas, keadaan politik berjolak. Bagaimana pendekatan kita dengan Malaysia itu satu, dan kedua juga dari masa ke semasa adalah kan komen-komen mungkin bukan daripada kerajaan, daripada tokoh politik yang memperkecilkan Singapura, memperkecilkan masyarakat Melayu contohnya. Bagaimana itu kita nak? Kadang-kadang kita geram macam...Dr Maliki cakaplah something untuk bidas certain figures tapi bagaimana...how does our government handle that kind of situation?

Second Minister: We always try to rise above the rhetoric. Kadang-kadang kalau kita ikutkan retorik-retorik yang keluar daripada negara-negara lain, we are just feeding into the politics of media, politics of rhetoric, right? So kita dari Singapura punya perspektif, we rise above, we look at what are the larger picture that we need to address. Apakah isu-isu yang yang lebih penting? So if they say, mungkin with Malaysia, issue of water comes out, we know it's always been an issue but we go back to the basic principles. Apakah perjanjian masa lalu? Mixture rakyat Singapura faham Singapura punya position dulu. Yang penting ialah rakyat Singapura mesti faham. We always say foreign policy begins at home. Ini bermakna bahawa rakyat Singapura perlu memahami apakah posisi Singapura berkaitan dengan isu-isu yang mempunyai kaitan dengan hubungan kita dengan negara-negara jiran kita? So that's the first thing.

Second thing is that even with Malaysia, saya juga berhubungan dengan menteri-menteri besar di semua state di Malaysia, negeri di Malaysia. Di Johor, di Melaka, di Pahang, di Kelantan saya berhubungan dengan ahli-ahli politik mereka. Mereka ada federal system, tapi walaupun ada Federal government di setiap state mereka ada adun mereka sendiri. Ada Dewan Undangan mereka sendiri. Jadi di situ mereka ada politician sendiri. Dan di situ yang penting kerana mereka harus memahami juga Apa itu Singapura. Kadang-kadang kerana mereka jauh, mereka di utara, mereka tidak mendapat maklumat-maklumat yang lebih mendalam tentang prinsip, tentang polisi-polisi dan dasar-dasar Singapura. Saya mengunjungi mereka menerang kepada mereka dan that's why I always say bila saya berhubung ke sana I will always meet the youngsters there. I will always meet the youth. Find opportunity to engage them in dialogue. So saya dapat tahu sama ada pemikiran mereka selaras dengan apa yang berlaku di Singapura. Kadang-kadang mereka tak tahu. Kadang-kadang mereka tak tahu bahawa kita punya MUIS, which is a stat board. They don't know that MUIS oversees all the mosques. 

Shahida: True, true.

Second Minister: They don't know all this. They don't know macam mana kita menjaga kebajikan masyarakat Islam kita. Mereka tak tahu apakah fungsi Mendaki misalannya. Bila saya terangkan ini semua, mereka macam, “Oh okay. Now I know.” Mereka akan ke mari. Whenever I go there, I always send an official invite after that, come to Singapore, look at us, and then we explain to them all the different perspective. Jadi apa yang mereka lihat ialah Singapura yang mungkin, tidak mereka sangka, kedua ialah kemajuan Singapura, ketiga ialah clear up their perception. Ramai di antara mereka yang masih salah anggap bahawa mungkin masyarakat Melayu Singapura sebagai masyarakat yang minoriti dipinggirkan. 

Shahida: Always.

Second Minister: Jadi bila saya ke sana mereka melihat saya sebagai Menteri Melayu di Singapura. Ada yang mungkin tertanya-tanya. Betul ke tak? Ada come straight to my face, “Are you sure”?

Shahida: Tapi Dr Maliki, bila you pergi, you sendiri yang nak pergi ataupun memang  kementerian suruh you pergi ke provinsi ataupun ke state ini dan sebagainya?

Second Minister: No, it's my own personal interest. Sebenarnya, it is my own personal interest that I want to make sure as best as our two immediate neighbours is concerned, kita menjalin hubungan yang mendalam and because of that I will look after all the provincial government level, both Malaysia and Indonesia. So I go to all the provinces of Indonesia and all the states in Malaysia and establish good relationship with the politicians. So in Malaysia for example, kerana perubahan leadership several times, kan? So one moment this person is my co, in government next year, dia jadi opposition. But we are still in contact in Whatsapp. So Whatsapp, we still exchange experiences, thoughts, views. So it's ok because you'll never know when. You'll never know when.

Hadi: Itu soalan saya sebenarnya. Kalau negara yang kurang stabil, adakah ia merumitkan hubungan yang kita cuba jalin dengan mereka?

Second Minister: Saya rasa bukan merumitkan, tapi yang penting ialah kerana dasar kita ialah we are friends to everyone. In the first place. So whoever is in government, we will work with you. Because you will establish that relationship. Itu yang penting dari segi perhubungan because you never know when you'll be in government. Even when they're not government in the opposition, kita menjalinkan hubungan yang rapat kerana kita ingin tahu pemandangan mereka, pemikiran mereka, so that bila jadi government, we know what they are thinking. We know their perception. Jadi kita tak macam kelam-kabutlah bila mereka mengambil alih pucuk pimpinan negara dan kita sudahpun memahami mereka. Mereka tahu kita, mereka tahu kenal kita. They know our perception, they know our principles. So it's easier to proceed from there. Tak payah nak mula daripada scratch again. So even when we build relationship, bila kita pergi, we also look at the second layer of leardership. We don't just build relationship with the top layer.

Shahida: Long term eh?

Second Minister: Long term. Very long term. Super long term. We look at the second layer, who are the potential. We start meeting them, engaging them, so that they know us. And even if they are no longer in government, ada wali kota, mayors in Indonesia yang mungkin gagal dalam pilihan raya. I still keep in contact with them. When they come here, they contact me. And I still meet up with them and they appreciate that. They appreciate to see, that ikhlas.

Shahida: Sincere.

Second Minister: Ikhlas. I tell you, for example, jiran tetangga kita, Brunei. Saya ke Brunei setiap tahun untuk menyambut Hari Raya. Kadang-kadang family kat sini cakap, “Kalau kat sini satu hari dah sibuk, tak boleh jumpa, tapi kat sana lima hari.”

Shahida: Oh wow.

Second Minister: So we started out with three days visit in Brunei. I started in 2015-2016, sebab I masuk MFA in 2015. So we will go- I started with about 20 houses, right? We visit 20 houses.

Shahida: 20 rumah, wow!

Second Minister: Because these are all the ministers, and junior ministers, because at that time, I kira junior ministers, MOS kan? Jalin hubungan, right? So dia pun ada perubahan dari segi cabinet reshuffle. So bila ada cabinet reshuffle, ada new ministers, kan? Tapi old ministers stay in the system. So, bila I pergi next time, naik 30 rumah. So I visit the 20 yang baru, and the 10 yang no more minister. The last one before COVID, dah naik 40 rumah.

Shahida: Oh wow! Pengsan!

Second Minister: So I do it in about four days.

Shahida: Wow, average 10 satu rumah.

Hadi: Satu hari 10 rumah, tak ada whistle lah? Ada “times up”?

Second Minister: Ada yang jaga lah. Dia wink-wink sikit, you got the message, so we tell our hosts, we got to go. But I tell you, next round, insya Allah next year, because this year we masih belum boleh pergi, so next year, I dah kira, it’s 50 houses.

Shahida: Masya Allah.

Hadi: Apa kata you sewa satu ballroom, bawa semua mari?

Second Minister: No that’s different. That’s where the personal relationship is. You make every effort to go to every house and every house you spend time with them, get to know their family, get to know their children.

Hadi: This is your amalan?

Second Minister: Practice. My own personal practice.

Shahida: Personal? Masya Allah.

Second Minister: Personal practice, with Brunei. Because we have a special relationship with Brunei and they fully appreciate that, because nobody has ever done that with them, and right down to Sultan. So when I first come, I will meet Sultan at the Istana, meet all his family, then the next thing is meet all the different ministers, former ministers, ex-ministers.

Shahida: Why do you do this extra work, Dr Maliki?

Second Minister: This is really what it means to build long lasting, trusting relationships. Sincere. You have to be sincere with that. The relationship, they trust us and all these things is needed when we go to we go to the international fora. Bila kita pergi to the international fora, we need support from different countries. I give you an example.

Ini penting kerana kita perlu sokongan negara-negara lain demi kepentingan Singapura. Saya beri contoh. Satu ialah kita punya posisi sebagai aviation hub. Hab aviasi kita. We are an international aviation hub. Sebagai aviation hub kita perlu memainkan peranan dalam the international arena. Arena international, ada suatu pertubuhan dikatakan ICAO. International Civil Aviation Organization dan organisasi ini merupakan organisasi yang melakarkan prinsip dasar-dasar berkaitan langsung dengan aviation industry as a whole internationally. We have to be in there. So the main council, kita perlu dipilih menerusi pilihanraya. There is an election (once every three years).

Shahida: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Second Minister: There’s an election (held once every three years), and you have to be elected to be in the Council. As an aviation hub, sebagai hub aviasi, penting untuk Singapura masuk dan duduk dalam council tersebut. Ini council internasional. Untuk kita dipilih menerusi pilihanraya, kita perlukan the consistuency. Kita punya consistuents is semua negara di dunia yang menganggotai organisasi ini. Jadi peranan saya di MFA, ialah untuk menjalin hubungan yang rapat dengan semua anggota-anggota negara yang menjadi anggota pertubuhan ini so bila waktu pilihanraya datang kita dapat sokongan mereka.

Shahida: That is important!

Second Minister: So mereka faham dan mereka faham apakah penting, mengapa penting Singapura sebagai hab aviasi di Asia Tenggara ini menganggotai council. Dan kita dengan hubungan ini insya-Allah kita dapat terus sokongan mereka. So this is just one example. 

Shahida: Satu contoh.

Second Minister: IMO is satu lagi. International Maritime Organisation. Kita merupakan hab maritim, dan kita perlu menganggotai council IMO juga. 

Shahida: Sama juga, ada pilihan raya juga.

Second Minister: Setiap organisasi antarabangsa, pucuk pimpinannya ialah sebuah majlis yang dianggotai oleh mereka yang dipilih menerusi pilihanraya oleh semua anggota. So our role is that kalau kita kecil, kita tidak dapat menyuarakan atau suara kita tidak dapat didengar. 

Shahida: Tenggelam.

Second Minister: Jadi hubungan kita ialah untuk memastikan suara-suara negara-negara kecil didengari dan diambil beratlah. Satu lagi contoh ialah cara kita membawa semua negara kecil. So we have this organisasi yang kita tubuh. Forum of Small States. Forum Negara-negara Kecil di pertubuhan bangsa-bangsa bersatu. Sebelum ini setiap negara yang kecil bila mereka bersuara mungkin tidak lantang. Dengan Forum of Small States ini kita hari ini – saya rasa ada 108  negara kecil, together, sebagai satu blok. We will go to to PBB dan suara kita lebih kuat. Dan ini cara kita di Singapura ini. Dasar luar kita ialah untuk menjalin hubungan yang erat dengan negara-negara yang what we call like minded. Membuat hubungan dan kita membuat pertubuhan sedemikian, we lead in that. Dan kita membawa mereka ke ke arena antarabangsa. Jadi ini membantu kemajuan kita. Membantu isu yang saya tekankan tadi, yang penting ialah kepentingan Singapura. Our own interest and to develop our own interest untuk memastikan kepentingan Singapura terjaga di peringkat antarabangsa. MFA harus melakukan ini semua. Jadi ramai yang sering melihat Facebook saya, "Wow Dr Maliki, ke sana ke mari lah, bestnya! Macam holiday!"

Shahida: Bukan eh!

Second Minister: The amount of work yang kita lakukan!

Shahida: Itu yang orang tak nampak eh, Dr Maliki!

Second Minister: Tak nampak.

Shahida: Dr Maliki, tadi you terangkan tentang bagaimana Singapura tidak berpihak. We are friends with everybody. Antaranya ialah kalau kita lihat tentang konflik ataupun isu antara Israel dan Palestin. Ini satu isu yang mungkin very sensitive also to our community, to our people kerana ia ada unsur keagamaan dan sebagainya. Bagaimanakah mungkin kedudukan Singapura dalam konflik tersebut dalam mengimbangi antara kedua-dua isu yang agak berat ini?

Second Minister: Maybe sebelum saya jawab soalan berkaitan dengan Singapura dengan Israel dan Palestin, kita lihat hubungan Singapura dengan negara-negara di timur tengah. di mana Israel dan Palestin terletak di Timur Tengah juga eh. Kita mempunyai hubungan yang baik dan erat bersama dengan negara Timur Tengah kerana kita tahu dari segi sejarah ramai di antara para pendatang yang beragama Islam di Singapura ini datang daripada Middle East. Daripada Hadramaut, di Yemen, mereka merupakan pedagang-pedagang datang ke mari. Dan ini memberi kita permulaan hubungan yang perlu kita eratkan di timur tengah. Di timur tengah, kita punya hubungan erat dengan Saudi Arabia dengan semualah. Dan negara-negara di telok, kerana apa? Kerana mereka merupakan satu rantau yang penting untuk Singapura. Kerana mereka bukan sahaja dari segi perdagangan, tapi kerana mereka negara Islam dari kita mempunyai segolongan rakyat Singapura yang beragama Islam jadi apa yang berlaku di sana penting untuk kita. 

Shahida: Betul.

Second Minister: Jadi apa yang berlaku di sana dari segi keagamaan dan sebagainya penting untuk kita dan ramai di antara para pelajar kita juga ke sana untuk menimba ilmu. Dan itu sebabnya kita perlu terus menjalinkan hubungan yang erat dengan mereka. Berkaitan dengan hubungan kita dengan Israel dan Palestin, ini merupakan satu isu yang begitu sensitif. Kerana di Palestin dan di Israel kita tahu Baitulmaqdis, Jerusalem merupakan salah satu tempat yang begitu sensitif kerana ia mempunyai sejarah yang dikatakan berkaitan dengan agama-agama Ibrahim atau Samawi dan keprihatinan kita terhadap Jerusalem ialah masyarakat Islam kita menganggap Masjid Al-Aqsa perlu dijaga rapi dan di sana juga masyarakat Jewish dan sebagainya merasakan bahawa itu tempat holy site untuk mereka. 

Apa yang kita harus fahami ialah apa yang berlaku di Israel dan di Palestin, kadang-kadang apa yang tercetus di Baitulmaqdis misalnya, dilihat sebagai satu pertempuran agama. Sebenarnya ia bukan pertubuhan agama. Ia merupakan pertubuhan politik antara kumpulan-kumpulan politik di Israel mahupun di Palestin. 

Di Palestin dikatakan intra-Palestinian conflict. Ada terdapat golongan-golongan politik yang bercanggah dari segi pemikiran mereka. Dari segi bagaimana mereka melihat hubungan mereka dengan Israel. Israel juga ada perselisihan politik di antara kumpulan-kumpulan politik. Jadi apa yang berlaku di Israel dan Palestin sering kali disalah tanggapan, dilihat sebagai satu isu agama. Ia bukan isu agama tapi isu politik yang harus huraikan oleh kedua-dua Israel dan Palestin. Kedua-dua kumpulan Israel dan Palestin. 

Apakah posisi Singapura? Singapura mengambil posisi bahawa keamanan, kestabilan di rantau tersebut boleh dicapai hanya menerusi apa yang dikatakan two-state solution. Solusi di mana kedua-dua wujud sebagai negara independent. Palestin sebagai negara yang diiktiraf, Israel sebagai negara yang diiktiraf. Yang saya katakan perselisihan politik itu kerana ada golongan-golongan politik yang tidak mahu menganggap ataupun menerima kewujudan setiap negara Palestin dan Israel sebagai negara yang diberi hak untuk wujud bersebelahan antara satu sama lain, so that's the very first thing. 

Kedua ialah kita mengambil posisi dimana setiap posisi berkaitan menyokong posisi yang diambil oleh PBB (Pertubuhan Bangsa-Bangsa Bersatu). Oleh apa Pertubuhan Bangsa-bangsa Bersatu. So all our resolution is in support of the UN resolution including resolusi-resolusi yang mengutuk Israel apabila Israel membuat sesuatu yang dianggap bercanggah dengan prinsip-prinsip undang-undang antarabangsa. So first there is international law, ataupun undang-undang antarabangsa dan undang-undang antarabangsa ini harus dipatuhi. Dan jika terdapat apa yang berlaku yang bercanggah dengan undang-undang antarabangsa ini dan pertubuhan bangsa-bangsa bersatu ataupun membuat resolusi kita akan menyokong. Kita menyokong dan mengutuk apa yang perlu dikutuk. Apa yang kita ingin lakukan hari ini ialah terus membantu kedua-dua negara memahami apakah prinsip Singapura. 

Kita mempunyai hubungan erat dengan Israel dari segi pendidikan, infrastruktur, dari segi sains dan teknologi, kerana mereka mempunyai kemahiran. So we can tap on. We can tap on many other countries. Kita punya hubungan dengan Pihak Berkuasa Palestin, kita ingin menyokong, membantu kemajuan mereka. Sejak 2016, Perdana Menteri telah berkunjung ke sana dan kita telahpun meningkatkan bantuan kita kepada Pihak Berkuasa Palestin. Kita mempunyai Enhanced Training Package (Enhanced Technical Assistance Package) 10 juta yang telah disalurkan atau diagihkan untuk pembangunan Palestin. Apakah yang telah kita lakukan untuk mereka? Kita membantu meningkatkan taraf kebolehan para pegawai mereka. Hari ini lebih daripada 600 para pegawai Palestin telah dilantik oleh Singapura, untuk membantu pembangunan mereka kita telah membawa beberapa scholars daripada Palestin untuk datang ke Singapura. These are postgraduate students. Untuk membantu and they are also senior official dari Pihak Berkuasa Palestin datang kemari mengikuti kursus pos siswazah kita dan mereka pulang untuk mengambil posisi lebih tinggi lagi. Jadi hubungan kita dengan Palestin adalah untuk membantu meningkatkan kebolehan mereka menerusi teknikal education, teknikal training dan kita harap ini akan dapat membantu mereka untuk meningkatkan kebolehan mereka. Dan dari itu hubungan kami dengan dengan kedua-dua Israel dan Palestin is one that is balanced, dikatakan seimbang. But apa yang penting ialah huraian yang jangka masa panjang hanya di tangan para penduduk Palestin, para penduduk Israel. Tetapi kita lihat perkembangan. Hari ini kita lihat perdana menteri dan menteri luar Israel Yair Lapid mengatakan bahawa dia juga akur bahawa two-state solution merupakan solusi yang baik untuk kedua-dua pihak. Saya rasa ini ialah satu langkah yang baik yang saya harap dapat dibawa ke hadapan dan insya Allah satu hari nanti kita akan dapat resolusi yang melihat kedua-dua pihak ini hidup sebagai jiran yang demi kebaikan, bukan sahaja para penduduk mereka tetapi rantau tersebut jadi apa.

Hadi: Kita pun ada beberapa lawatan, kita difahamkan, tentang lawatan Encik Maliki yang akan datanglah. Apa tujuan lawatan ini utamanya dan bagaimana kita mengutarakan pendirian harapan kita kepada penguasa kedua-dua Israel dan juga Palestin?

Second Minister: Saya rasa lawatan-lawatan ini menunjukkan bahawa kita terus prihatin akan perkembangan di rantau-rantau ini. Ini kerana ini penting untuk kita punya first, domestic audience kerana masyarakat Melayu Islam kita terus prihatin tentang apa yang berlaku di Palestin dan Israel. Mereka ingin memahami apakah posisi Singapura, apakah dasar pemerintah Singapura terhadap Palestin, terhadap Israel. Mereka tahu hubungan kita rapat dengan Israel dan ingin tahu bahawa kita juga prihatin tentang perkembangan di Palestin. Jadi tujuan saya ke Palestin, saya ke West Bank mungkin setiap satu hingga dua atau tiga tahun melihat perkembangan mereka. Melihat apa yang telah kita bantu untuk mereka, sama ada cukup atau tidak, bantuan bagaimana lagi yang mereka perlukan. Sokongan bagaimana lagi mereka perlukan. Jadi para penduduk kita masyarakat Melayu Islam kita tahu bahawa kita prihatin tentang perkembangan rakyat Palestin kerana kita tahu sebagai negara kecil ini penting. Dulu kita supaya negara kecil kita merupakan beneficiary. Kita dapat bantuan negara-negara besar. Jadi kita tahu apakah pentingnya sokongan daripada negara-negara untuk pembangunan mereka. 

Kedua ialah kita ingin melihat bagaimana kita boleh meningkatkan perhubungan kita dengan negara-negara ini ataupun buat pihak-pihak ini. Jadi apabila saya ke sana saya akan melancarkan pembukaan pejabat Perwakilan Singapura di Ramallah. Hari ini kita belum mempunyai Pejabat Perwakilan di sana. Kita telah pun membuat pengumuman tersebut yang kita akan membuka Pejabat Perwakilan dan apabila saya ke sana, saya akan merasmikan pembukaan Pejabat Perwakilan ini. Apakah peranan Pejabat Perwakilan? Ini merupakan peningkatan dari segi perhubungan kita dengan Palestin kerana dengan Pejabat Perwakilan ini, ini bermakna hubungan kita akan lebih bukan saja mendalam tapi lebih efficient kerana apa yang yang diperlukan oleh Palestin boleh langsung disalurkan menerusi Pejabat Perwakilan ini dan pejabat kali ini akan disokong oleh MFA.  supaya ketika kita mempunyai pegawai di sana supaya apa yang diperlukan untuk terus menjalinkan hubungan yang lebih erat, mendalamkan hubungan bersama Palestin akan dapat disalurkan dengan lebih efisien lagi dengan lebih cepat lagi. Itu tujuan kami dan setiap kali saya ke sana, saya membuat assessment, menganalisa perkembangan dan apa yang boleh kita lakukan untuk terus menyokong mereka.

Hadi: Penilaian Dr Maliki tentang bagaimana, penerimaan masyarakat kitalah tentang hubungan negara kita dengan dari segi konteks, isu Israel-Palestin, penerimaan kita satu, dan juga because by latar belakang kita tak memihak, seperti Dr Maliki kata tadi. Bila kita perlu sokong resolusi UN yang mengutuk Israel, kita lakukan sedemikian tapi kita juga antara negara yang tidak abstain daripada mengiktiraf atau kedudukan crescent DUD di PBB lah. Jadi bagaimana kita dapat membantu masyarakat kita untuk memahami isu ini dengan lebih mendalam dalam pandangan Dr Maliki.

Second Minister: Saya rasa apa yang saya dapati, masyarakat Melayu Islam kita memahami konteks apa yang berlaku di Israel dan Palestin adalah sesuatu yang begitu kompleks sekali. Ia bukan satu yang mudah. Itu yang mereka fahami. Very complex. Kadangkala kita lihat di media, apa yang berlaku dan mereka merasakan gaduh lagi, pengumuman dan sebagainya. Mereka lihat ini mereka tahu ini satu yang yang kompleks. Tetapi apa yang mereka kurang pasti ialah apa yang sebenarnya berlaku, saya rasa. So misalan kalau kita lihat berita media pengumuman yang berlaku dari Israel ke Palestin dan sebagainya, Di Palestin ada dua kumpulan. Kumpulan yang memerintah. Tapi ada sekumpulan kecil disokong Hamas yang mempunyai prinsip yang berlainan Tapi kadang-kadang mereka mempunyai pandangan di mana hubungan mereka lebih agresif. Pendirian mereka lebih agresif. Kadang-kadang pengumuman dilakukan oleh mereka tapi masyarakat kita kurang faham. Kurang faham apakah punca tercetusnya perselisihan tersebut. “Oh, gaduh lagi. Oh, perang lagi.” Saya harap yang penting ialah kita membantu mereka untuk memahami bahawa apa yang berlaku di Palestin ini kerana perselisihan faham ataupun pemikiran yang agak berlainan. Ini adalah apa yang kita katakan intra-Palestinian conflict. Intra-Palestinian disagreement. Dan kita tidak faham, kita ingatkan Palestin satu pihak yang sama. So because of that kita perlu terus memberi pemahaman kepada mereka supaya mereka tahu bahawa ini harus dihuraikan oleh pihak Palestin sendiri. 

Sama juga dengan Israel. Saya katakan tadi Perdana Menteri dan foreign minister Yair Lapid sudah mengatakan bahawa two-state solution is good for them. Tapi ada pemimpin-pemimpin sebelum ini yang tidak mengiktiraf posisi ini sebagai posisi yang boleh membawa keamanan kepada orang tersebut. So there are 2 different layers. Satu, mereka tahu bahawa ini adalah isu yang kompleks tapi dari segi lebih mendalam saya rasa masyarakat kita masih belum memahami. Mereka mempunyai perasaan yang begitu sentimental terhadap para penduduk di Palestin. Kita faham kerana mereka, para penduduk Palestin merupakan mereka yang beragama Islam yang mereka rasa kerana sebagai umat Islam kita harus memberi sokongan kepada mereka. Jadi saya rasa memberi sokongan baik, tapi kalau boleh jangan terlibat dari segi perselisihan politik yang berlaku di sana. Itu sebabnya Rahmatan lil Alamin, misalnya yang membantu masyarakat kita untuk memainkan peranan membangunkan Palestin. Bekerjasama dengan MFA, membantu membangunkan Palestin dari aspek pembangunan mereka yang boleh kita bantu tapi kita jangan memasuk atau jangan masuk tangan dari aspek politik mereka. Kerana kalau kita masuk tangan kita telah sebagai macam ingin get involved, influence the domestic politics of another country of another region. Ini prinsip utama Singapura. Prinsip utama Singapura ialah tidak mahu campur tangan dalam arena politik mana-mana negara kerana kita tidak mahu mana-mana negara memasuki atau campur tangan politik domestik kita.

Shahida: Hmm, penting tu.

Second Minister: So we must walk the talk. Kalau kita rasa kita tidak mahu negara lain campur tangan dalam politik kita, kita harus terima hakikatnya. Kita tidak boleh campur tangan dalam politik negara lain. So apa yang kita boleh lakukan ialah membantu, menyokong, tapi we had to leave the domestic politics to the respective countries tapi kita mengikuti apa yang ditetapkan di PBB. Kerana kita merupakan anggota PBB. And PBB melihat aspek-aspek international law, undang-undang antarabangsa, dan membuat keputusan mereka sewajarnya.

Shahida: Nak cakap tentang ketidaktentuan tadi, tentang bagaimana konflik berlaku di Israel-Palestin dan saya rasa bukan di kawasan itu sahaja. Perdana Menteri Encik Lee dan juga Menteri Hal Ehwal Luar kita, Dr Vivian Balakrishnan juga telah menyatakan sebelum ini bahawa dunia kita ini sekarang mungkin telah memasuki satu fasa yang agak berbahaya. Banyak sangat ketidaktentuan yang akan berlaku tapi mungkin bagaimana... Why is it very important untuk masyarakat kita memahami tentang apa yang berlaku di luar sana tu?

Second Minister: Kerana satu kita kecil. Sebagai negara yang kecil kita...kewujudan kita berkaitan langsung dengan apa yang berlaku di negara-negara luar. Kita tidak boleh hidup sebagai katak bawah tempurung. Kerana kita terlalu kecil. Ekonomi kita bergantung kepada perdagangan kita. Dengan negara-negara luar. Our trade is three times our GDP bermakna apa yang kita dapat sebagai sumber untuk membangunkan Singapura berkaitan langsung dengan hubungan kita dari segi perdagangan dengan negara-negara lain. Ya, kita tidak berdagang dengan negara lain, kita tidak boleh maju seperti kemajuan kita hari ini. Kerana kita hanya mempunyai lima juta penduduk. Tiga perpuluhan lima juta rakyat Singapura kalau tidak berhubungan, tidak berdagang, kita tidak mempunyai apa-apa yang kita produce. Apa yang kita keluar? Kita tak ada hasil pengeluaran. Tak ada sayur, tak ada apa-apa kan. So, we need to buy things. Kita perlu mengimport 90 per cent of our food intake come from overseas. 90 peratus. And kerana kita merupakan negara yang kecil kita dikatakan we are price tickers. Kita tidak boleh mengatakan "oh, I only buy this at this price. 

Shahida: Tak boleh tetapkan harga, eh.

Second Minister: Tak boleh tetapkan harga. Mereka boleh ada other people yang boleh mereka jual. So kedua ialah kerana ketidaktentuan yang berlaku di negara-negara lain, apa yang berlaku akan menjejas kita. Misalannya Russia-Ukraine crisis. Russia merupakan salah satu pengeluar gas yang penting. Ukraine pengeluar grain. So direct link is agriculture. Ternakan. Kerana keadaan sedemikian banyak hasil grain yang selalunya dikeluarkan oleh Ukraine tidak dapat dikeluarkan kerana peperangan berlaku di sana langsung harga-harga makanan terus naik. So apa yang berlaku di luar sana akan menjejas Singapura secara langsung. Bukan secara tidak langsung. Apa yang harus kita lakukan pertama ialah kita harus, seperti saya katakan tadi, menjalin hubungan dengan negara-negara lain supaya mereka dapat tahu bahawa jika apa berlaku jangan memotong ataupun menghadkan pengeluaran mereka kepada Singapura. Misalnya berlaku dari konteks ayam dari Malaysia. So many countries they have to look at their own domestic politics. Setiap negara melihat pada politik domestik mereka. Sebagai ahli politik pada permulaan saya mula politik, salah satu prinsip yang saya diberitahu ialah all politics is domestic. All politics is local. So sebagai ahli politik di negara-negara lain, mereka mengutamakan domestik politik mereka. Kalau apa-apa berlaku, they have to look at domestic. Dia tak terfikir orang luar. Sama dengan apa yang berlaku baru-baru ini. So they look at domestic, I don't have enough chicken, tak cukup, saya akan protect supaya saya punya penyokong tidak marah. They have the right to do that. Semua negara have the right to do that. So kalau kita import 90 peratus daripada keperluan kita dari negara-negara lain, kalau semua tutup pintu mereka apa yang akan berlaku kepada kita?

Shahida: Habis lah. Tak boleh makan. 

Second Minister: Habis lah. So we cannot be held ransom. Kita tak boleh...we cannot reach that point. Kita tak boleh...kita tak ada peluang. Jadi apa yang kita lakukan, yang pertama kita menjalin hubungan yang erat dengan negara-negara lain supaya kita ada MOU, kita ada perjanjian kalau ada apa-apa sebelum you cut, let's talk first. Let's try to understand keperluan you, keperluan kita. Sama ada boleh terus walaupun tak 100%, cut down to 50%, dan kita, we then expand apa yang digunakan, diversification of our sources. Kita membuka sumber-sumber. Hari ini kita import ayam daripada Brazil, daripada Mexico. Kita import from all different places. So if something happened in Latin America kita masih ada sumber daripada Europe. Kalau something happen in Europe kita masih ada sumber di Afrika. Kalau ada something happen in Africa, kita ada sumber di Middle East. So kita cari sumber-sumber di merata negara untuk memastikan bahawa kita, kewujudan kita akan dapat terus terjamin dan inflasi akan dapat terus kita control. Hari ini kadar inflasi begitu tinggi kerana it's beyond us. Everybody is affected. COVID affects everybody kan. Kalau boleh dengan sumber-sumber yang berlainan, the supply will remain. Economics, lah. Pricing, harga berkaitan dengan demand and supply. Jadi kalau supply turun, demand still high, price naik. So kita maknanya pastikan bahawa kita punya supply terus ada dan kita boleh...demand tak akan meningkat. Demand sama juga mungkin meningkat sedikit tapi price akan dapat kita kawal supaya inflasi tidak terus meningkat. Jadi apa yang berlaku dikatakan Perdana Menteri di Ukraine, hubungan antara US dan China, berkaitan langsung. Kerana apa yang berlaku dengan US dengan China? Tariff. US meningkatkan tarrif ialah cukai barangan Cina. Kalau cukai tinggi barangan Cina tinggi. So kita pun akan terjejas juga. Jadi apa yang berlaku di di antara negara-negara besar antara rantau jiran merata rantau menjejas kita juga. Jadi kita perlu memahami ini dan memahami apa yang harus kita lakukan. Dan rakyat Singapura perlu lakukan ini juga, melihat apa yang harus kita lakukan. Jangan cepat marah. Kita pemerintah akan membantu mereka dari segi peningkatan harga kos kehidupan dan sebagainya, tetapi kita juga harus memainkan peranan kita sebagai duta. Kita sering mengatakan setiap rakyat Singapura adalah duta untuk Singapura. You're ambassadors to your own country. Jadi kalau mereka di luar negara kalau mereka dengar mungkin cemuhan-cemuhan ataupun kritikan terhadap dasar-dasar Singapura saya harap mereka tidak sama-sama juga mengkritik lah, tapi mereka membela dasar Singapura. So foreign policy begins at home. Kita harus meningkatkan kesedaran, meningkatkan fahaman setiap rakyat Singapura, peranan mereka sebagai rakyat Singapura. Jadi kalau mereka ke luar negara mereka berhubungan dengan rakan-rakan perdagangan mereka ataupun mereka tinggal di sana, kita harap mereka menjadi duta untuk Singapura dan memajukan kepentingan Singapura, memajukan keperluan Singapura.

Hadi: Last question, mungkin sebelum kita wrap up, Dr Maliki. Tentang kaitan antara dunia yang lebih bergelora, di dunia yang lebih berbahaya kemudian kita diminta rakyat Singapura untuk bersatu padulah. Kita sebagai negara kecil tidak boleh menjejas, mempengaruhi apa berlaku di dunia. In fact kita...tapi telah dibincangkan sebelum ini kenapa kita harus pendirian terhadap Russia dan Ukraine dan sebagainya, tapi apa kaitan antara kita bersatu padu dengan ancaman-ancaman geopolitik ini, kalau you boleh jelaskan.

Second Minister: Saya rasa yang penting ialah rakyat Singapura memahami beberapa aspek kewujudan Singapura. Pertama ialah kita harus sebagai satu negara, bersatu untuk melindungi dan membela kemerdekaan kita dan kedaulatan kita. Kita merupakan suatu negara yang merdeka dan berdaulat mempunyai integriti territorial. Ini adalah hak kita itu sebabnya Kita memerlukan keupayaan untuk membela kita. Kita memerlukan angkatan bersenjata yang kuat yang bersedia untuk membela Singapura. Kedua ialah kita harus faham sebagai negara yang kecil dan mempunyai dasar keterbukaan kita harus melihat kerelevanan Singapura kepada dunia luar. Sebagai negara kecil kita pernah diperkatakan little red dot, yang mungkin tidak wujud ataupun tidak dilihat oleh mana-mana negara. Jadi yang penting ialah kerelevanan Singapura memastikan setiap negara di luar sana tahu akan Singapura. Tahu akan pentingnya Singapura kepada mereka juga. Dan ini isu kerelevanan Singapura dan kerelevanan ini berkaitan langsung dengan peranan rakyat Singapura. Bersatu teguh dikatakan bercerai roboh. Dan apa yang penting ialah kestabilan domestik. Satu ialah para pelabur yang datang ke Singapura kita perlu pelaburan untuk meningkatkan dan menyemarakkan ekonomi kita kerana kita merupakan negara kecil yang saya katakan tadi.

Aspek kedua ialah kewujudan Singapura sebagai negara yang kecil dan peranan Singapura dalam dunia luar kerana itu kita harus memastikan rakyat Singapura faham akan kerelevanan Singapura kepada dunia luar. Kita pernah digelar sebagai little red dot. Seperti kita tidak penting dalam dunia luar. Ramai negara mungkin tidak tahu Singapura kalau kita tidak relevan kepada diri mereka. Jadi yang penting ialah kita pastikan yang kita relevan kepada semua negara di luar sana. Negara kecil dan negara besar juga. Lebih-lebih lagi negara besar kerana negara bersama punya rakan-rakan yang sebesar mereka jadi jika mereka lihat negara kecil seperti Singapura, mereka mungkin rasa ini tidak penting. Jadi kalau kita relevan kepada pembangunan mereka, kita akan memainkan peranan yang penting dalam kewujudan negara-negara itu juga. Kerana itu kita memerlukan rakyat Singapura bersatu, seperti dikatakan bersatu teguh bercerai kita roboh. Bersatu untuk memastikan keadaan domestik kita kekal stabil, kekal dikatakan secure and stable. Kita perlukan pelaburan-pelaburan untuk meningkatkan atau mengembangkan ekonomi kita, menyemarakkan ekonomi kita kerana kita perlu memastikan anak-anak muda kita mempunyai pekerjaan, mendapat pendapatan yang sewajar dengan aspirasi mereka. Tapi para pelabur hanya akan melabur di sebuah negara yang stabil, yang tidak mempunyai kekecohan. Kerana jika mereka lihat negara itu kecoh dengan riots dan sebagainya, mereka rasa pelaburan mereka tidak akan stabil dan tidak akan meningkat. Nobody is going to come and invest. Itu penting. Jadi rakyat Singapura harus bersatu dari segi hubungan kaum, dari segi inklusiviti, dari segi kita memastikan setiap diantara mereka mempunyai hak dalam negara kita ini ataupun tempat dalam negara kita ini. 

Kedua ialah kita juga harus memastikan bahawa rakyat Singapura bersatu dari segi perhubungan kita dengan negara-negara lain. Ini yang saya katakan tadi, peranan rakyat Singapura sebagai duta Untuk Singapura, membela Singapura apabila mereka di luar negara yang kadang-kadang kita dengar kritikan daripada rakyat negara lain apabila kita mempunyai hubungan yang mungkin perselisihan faham dengan negara lain dan negara itu cuba mempengaruhi rakyat Singapura misalnya apabila kita mempunyai perselisihan faham dengan China berkaitan dengan Terrex itu ada, desas-desus mengatakan rakyat Singapura, para peniaga kita, mungkin cuba dipengaruhi oleh unsur-unsur yang ingin memecah belahkan Singapura. Disinilah pentingnya Singapura, pentingnya rakyat Singapura bersatu memahami peranan mereka, memahami dasar Singapura. Mengapa pemerintah Singapura memegang teguh kepada dasar-dasar tersebut dan dengan ini mereka boleh membela dasar Singapura, membela posisi Singapura. Kalau mereka gagal kita akan melihat keretakan. Mereka akan melihat keretakan dan keretakan ini akan dibesar-besarkan. Dan ia akan memecahkan Singapura. Jadi ini perkara yang begitu penting saya rasa untuk rakyat Singapura memahami peranan mereka. 

Jadi untuk merumuskan perbincangan kita hari ini saya ingin mengucapkan terima kasih kepada NoTapis Berita Harian kerana beri saya peluang untuk kita bincangkan satu isu yang sering kali tidak dalam pemikiran rakyat Singapura. Rakyat Singapura terus fikirkan domestik. Tak fikirkan pentingnya keadaan di luar sana. Jadi yang penting ialah memahami bahawa sebagai sebuah negara yang kecil kita harus terus mengeratkan hubungan kita dengan negara-negara lain pertama dengan jiran tetangga kita kerana hubungan jiran tetangga amat penting sekali. Ia akan memastikan kestabilan rantau ini dan kestabilan rantau ini kita boleh membawa para pelabur bukan sahaja di Singapura tapi juga melihat kerana kerelevanan Singapura dalam rantau yang stabil ini. Hubungan kita dengan jiran tetangga begitu penting sekali kerana kaitan sosioekonomi kita. Kita punya hubungan erat people-to-people antara rakyat dan hubungan erat dari segi ekonomi. Paling perlu-memerlui. Hubungan kita dengan negara-negara yang begitu penting juga. Dan keterbukaan Singapura membawa kepada implikasi akan terdapat warga-warga asing yang akan datang ke Singapura ini dan kita harus juga melihat pentingnya peranan mereka dalam negara kita. Jangan terlalu cepat untuk mengasingkan mereka daripada pembangunan negara kita. Ini semua aspek-aspek dasar pemerintah dari segi dasar luar negara kita yang mempunyai kaitan langsung dengan perkembangan kita, kewujudan kita sebagai sebuah negara di Singapura ini. Saya harap rakyat Singapura faham dan dapat bekerjasama dengan pemerintah dan bekerjasama antara satu sama lain untuk terus memperkukuhkan lagi perpaduan kaum kita, perpaduan kita sebagai sebuah negara untuk kemajuan kita dalam masa hadapan.

Shahida: Bagi mereka yang mendengar NoTapis ini, memang today saya rasa saya dapat tahu bagaimanakah kerja-kerja yang agak rumit tapi penting yang telah dilakukan oleh Dr Maliki dan juga pihak kementerian kita dalam usaha untuk menjalinkan keakraban, terutama sekali dengan jiran tetangga kita dan juga negara-negara di luar sana untuk memantapkan lagi kedudukan Singapura, memastikan Singapura terus relevan di mata dunia. Terima kasih kita ucapkan kepada Dr Maliki kerana sudi bersama kita dalam #NoTapis pada hari ini. Terima kasih juga kepada Nazri Hadi kerana soalan-soalan yang amat bernas tadi kepada Dr Maliki.

Second Minister: Terima kasih Hadi dan Shahida kerana mengundang saya, dan insyaAllah kita harap apa yang kita telah kita bincangkan memberi iktibar kepada semua para pendengar dan juga pembaca Berita Harian dan rakyat Singapura pada amnya.

Shahida: Terima kasih lagi, Dr Maliki.

Hadi: Terima kasih.

Second Minister for Foreign Affairs Dr Mohamad Maliki Osman with presenters of Berita Harian's #NoTapis podcast, Shahida Sarhid and Nazri Hadi Saparin

Photo credits: Berita Harian Singapore